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> it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary. What do you mean? They have seemingly standard parliamentary elections, last one in 2018, next u

by effie 5y ago

> it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary. What do you mean? They have seemingly standard parliamentary elections, last one in 2018, next up is 2022. People voted for Orban and co., and their policies are apparently preferred by majority. So how is it minority rule?

toss1 5y ago
You can say the same about Putin in Russia or Erdoğan in Turkey - they also "won" their elections. It is pseudo-democracy, where all the supposedly independent institutions (judiciary, legislative, academia, press, etc.) have been coopted and/or are under the thumb of the dictator/"elected leader", and what matters is not who votes but who counts the votes (and whose candidates and votes are suppressed or ruled 'illegal'). In the case of Hungary and Orbán, that parliament that you mentioned, back in March 2020, gave him virtually unlimited powers with no end date [1]. These virtually unlimited powers include: - State of emergency w/o time limit - Rule by decree - Parliament suspended - No elections - Spreading fake news + rumors: up to 5 yrs in prison - Leaving quarantine: up to 8 yrs in prison So, that's how. On a side note, I congratulate you for responding. It is really disappointing to see on HN that any mention of how democracy itself is under attack and in serious danger of being lost results in downvote hordes without comments. There is either a big bunch that doesn't want to hear it, or doesn't want it to be heard. At least you engaged in the discussion, so thx! [1]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orban-powers-vote-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orb...
- effie 5y ago
  Thanks for clarifying. So what you meant was that Orban and a small circle of people already in the Hungarian government got strong powers from the parliament to rule by decree and they use it to suppress civil liberties and liberal values and this is dangerous. I think I agree with that, but at the same time, this seems to be completely democratic process. I don't see autocracy or minority rule. I would be pissed if this happened in my country, but that is the problem with democracy - sometimes the naive and scared majority takes you democratically to hell.
  - toss1 5y ago
    Yup, that is exactly what happened in Germany in the 1920s-30s - the National Socialists and Hitler were 'democratically' elected, and went forward to subvert everything. But I would say that just because a group can subvert the rules and institutions of democracy once in power, that they are still a small-d democratic regime because they were initially elected and followed some of the forms. E.g., Putin just won his elections, but only after he put his primary opposition in jail...

by effie 5y ago

toss1 5y ago

You can say the same about Putin in Russia or Erdoğan in Turkey - they also "won" their elections. It is pseudo-democracy, where all the supposedly independent institutions (judiciary, legislative, academia, press, etc.) have been coopted and/or are under the thumb of the dictator/"elected leader", and what matters is not who votes but who counts the votes (and whose candidates and votes are suppressed or ruled 'illegal'). In the case of Hungary and Orbán, that parliament that you mentioned, back in March 2020, gave him virtually unlimited powers with no end date [1]. These virtually unlimited powers include: - State of emergency w/o time limit - Rule by decree - Parliament suspended - No elections - Spreading fake news + rumors: up to 5 yrs in prison - Leaving quarantine: up to 8 yrs in prison So, that's how. On a side note, I congratulate you for responding. It is really disappointing to see on HN that any mention of how democracy itself is under attack and in serious danger of being lost results in downvote hordes without comments. There is either a big bunch that doesn't want to hear it, or doesn't want it to be heard. At least you engaged in the discussion, so thx! [1]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orban-powers-vote-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orb...

effie 5y ago
Thanks for clarifying. So what you meant was that Orban and a small circle of people already in the Hungarian government got strong powers from the parliament to rule by decree and they use it to suppress civil liberties and liberal values and this is dangerous. I think I agree with that, but at the same time, this seems to be completely democratic process. I don't see autocracy or minority rule. I would be pissed if this happened in my country, but that is the problem with democracy - sometimes the naive and scared majority takes you democratically to hell.
- toss1 5y ago
  Yup, that is exactly what happened in Germany in the 1920s-30s - the National Socialists and Hitler were 'democratically' elected, and went forward to subvert everything. But I would say that just because a group can subvert the rules and institutions of democracy once in power, that they are still a small-d democratic regime because they were initially elected and followed some of the forms. E.g., Putin just won his elections, but only after he put his primary opposition in jail...