7 ms·

It should be decriminalized, not regulated. I would have liked to have been able to go to the police about the client who assaulted me, but unfortunately this d

by Aella 5y ago

It should be decriminalized, not regulated. I would have liked to have been able to go to the police about the client who assaulted me, but unfortunately this didn't cross my mind as an option.

kfprt 5y ago
There are lots of bad things that arguably shouldn't be illegal but suppressed. Smoking, abortion, prostitution, drugs, etc. I think for society to fully embrace decriminalization there needs to be a diversion mechanism. Cigarettes have taxes and programs to quit. What would the prostitution equivalent be? "Something is either morally wrong or it isn't, it can't be slightly morally wrong" Therein lies the difficulty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  > I think for society to fully embrace decriminalization there needs to be a diversion mechanism. Yes, let's make men who want to pay for sex watch an hour-long video extolling the virtues of "real" relationships. The reality is that there are a lot of men who enter into "normal" relationships with women in large part because it gives them easier access to sex. Not all of them are happy. Lots of them overextend themselves financially, and generally do things they wouldn't otherwise do, to keep their girlfriends satisfied. These are less direct exchanges, but they are exchanges nonetheless. I'm living in East Asia, which has made me think more about the exchanges that take place in relationships between men and women. Here, it's common to see men with expressionless looks on their faces lugging their girlfriends' handbags, spending 20 minutes helping them take cutesy photos, pushing strollers carrying not children but tiny, professionally-groomed pups, etc. As a warm-blooded man, you'd have a hard time convincing me that access to sex isn't a big reason these men are putting up with this stuff. Why do men who pay for sex need a diversion mechanism but the men who totally lose themselves in a relationship don't?
  - kfprt 5y ago
    Arguably both do. I am well aware that both prostitution and 'real' relationships both exist on the same continuum of exchange. What I would like to see are long term studies on the outcomes in prostitution and non prostitution communities.
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      Outcomes in terms of what?
      - kfprt 5y ago
        Length of relationships, self reported happiness, lifespan etc. Anything statistically significant.
        LurkingPenguin 5y ago
        And then what? You're going to tell consenting adults what they're allowed to do based on some subjective analysis of these? What happens if the men who pay directly for sex report shorter relationships and have lifespans 6 months shorter than men who don't, but they tell you they're happier? Or what happens if you discover that men who pay for sex while in relationships report longer relationships?
        kfprt 5y ago
        Of course not. It's like smoking, a case for disincentives. As for data that doesn't yet exist, I can't comment.
        LurkingPenguin 5y ago
        Why are you already bringing up disincentives? Your comments hint that you've already decided there is something inherently wrong with paying directly for sex. You're totally dismissing the possibility that research might very well find that prostitution is a net positive for individuals, and that most of the associated negatives are caused by its criminalization.
- c21h30o2 5y ago
  > What would the prostitution equivalent be? Universal basic income
  - kfprt 5y ago
    ...I'm surprised I didn't immediately think of that.
yedava 5y ago
Yes, you're right. I had decriminalization in mind, but maybe chose the incorrect word. And to elaborate on the prosecution part, in the wake of #MeToo, a lot of people came out with their stories, but not many of them pursued a legal route. I got the feeling that proving many of those allegations would be difficult in a legal system and whatever cases that did go through the legal system had a preponderance of evidence - along with immense social pressure - backing them up (think Bill Cosby/Harvery Weinstein). This is what made me wonder how much of a deterrent decriminalization/regulation would be on sexual assaults. Do we have to use public shaming, like in #MeToo, as a deterrent mechanism?
slothtrop 5y ago
That's the Nordic model which has been a collosal failure. The workers get harassed by both police and clients alike, they are no better off. Actual legitimacy would allow workers to better organize and protect themselves, and would also better mitigate human trafficking by leveraging regulation. Germany is working on improving its laws to this end.

by Aella 5y ago

It should be decriminalized, not regulated. I would have liked to have been able to go to the police about the client who assaulted me, but unfortunately this didn't cross my mind as an option.

kfprt 5y ago

There are lots of bad things that arguably shouldn't be illegal but suppressed. Smoking, abortion, prostitution, drugs, etc. I think for society to fully embrace decriminalization there needs to be a diversion mechanism. Cigarettes have taxes and programs to quit. What would the prostitution equivalent be? "Something is either morally wrong or it isn't, it can't be slightly morally wrong" Therein lies the difficulty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o

LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> I think for society to fully embrace decriminalization there needs to be a diversion mechanism. Yes, let's make men who want to pay for sex watch an hour-long video extolling the virtues of "real" relationships. The reality is that there are a lot of men who enter into "normal" relationships with women in large part because it gives them easier access to sex. Not all of them are happy. Lots of them overextend themselves financially, and generally do things they wouldn't otherwise do, to keep their girlfriends satisfied. These are less direct exchanges, but they are exchanges nonetheless. I'm living in East Asia, which has made me think more about the exchanges that take place in relationships between men and women. Here, it's common to see men with expressionless looks on their faces lugging their girlfriends' handbags, spending 20 minutes helping them take cutesy photos, pushing strollers carrying not children but tiny, professionally-groomed pups, etc. As a warm-blooded man, you'd have a hard time convincing me that access to sex isn't a big reason these men are putting up with this stuff. Why do men who pay for sex need a diversion mechanism but the men who totally lose themselves in a relationship don't?
- kfprt 5y ago
  Arguably both do. I am well aware that both prostitution and 'real' relationships both exist on the same continuum of exchange. What I would like to see are long term studies on the outcomes in prostitution and non prostitution communities.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    Outcomes in terms of what?
    - kfprt 5y ago
      Length of relationships, self reported happiness, lifespan etc. Anything statistically significant.
      - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
        And then what? You're going to tell consenting adults what they're allowed to do based on some subjective analysis of these? What happens if the men who pay directly for sex report shorter relationships and have lifespans 6 months shorter than men who don't, but they tell you they're happier? Or what happens if you discover that men who pay for sex while in relationships report longer relationships?
        kfprt 5y ago
        Of course not. It's like smoking, a case for disincentives. As for data that doesn't yet exist, I can't comment.
        LurkingPenguin 5y ago
        Why are you already bringing up disincentives? Your comments hint that you've already decided there is something inherently wrong with paying directly for sex. You're totally dismissing the possibility that research might very well find that prostitution is a net positive for individuals, and that most of the associated negatives are caused by its criminalization.
c21h30o2 5y ago
> What would the prostitution equivalent be? Universal basic income
- kfprt 5y ago
  ...I'm surprised I didn't immediately think of that.

yedava 5y ago

Yes, you're right. I had decriminalization in mind, but maybe chose the incorrect word. And to elaborate on the prosecution part, in the wake of #MeToo, a lot of people came out with their stories, but not many of them pursued a legal route. I got the feeling that proving many of those allegations would be difficult in a legal system and whatever cases that did go through the legal system had a preponderance of evidence - along with immense social pressure - backing them up (think Bill Cosby/Harvery Weinstein). This is what made me wonder how much of a deterrent decriminalization/regulation would be on sexual assaults. Do we have to use public shaming, like in #MeToo, as a deterrent mechanism?

slothtrop 5y ago

That's the Nordic model which has been a collosal failure. The workers get harassed by both police and clients alike, they are no better off. Actual legitimacy would allow workers to better organize and protect themselves, and would also better mitigate human trafficking by leveraging regulation. Germany is working on improving its laws to this end.