5 ms·

Texas schools are being told to teach ‘opposing views’ of the Holocaust. Why?

Ice_cream_suit 5y ago
Education by legislation has now reached the apogee of insanity. "If teachers are obliged to tell their classes that there is “another point of view” about whether the Holocaust occurred, must American history lessons now also include books asserting that the United States was never a slave-holding nation or that racism ended with the Emancipation Proclamation? If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"
- breckenedge 5y ago
  Unfortunate I think it can and will get crazier, and we’re just at the start of it. I’m surprised the teachers haven’t yet organized any opposition or civil disobedience. I couldn’t believe the headline when I first read it, the DMN even has a quote from the legislators saying that the educators “just got it wrong.” Clearly no, it’s just a poorly written, misguided law.
- Bostonian 5y ago
  'If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"' A man and a woman are the reproductive unit, and opponents of same sex marriage, including me, do not think the government should be sanctioning and thereby blessing other kinds of unions. A May 2019 Gallup poll found that 36% oppos same sex marriage. I think their views should be understood, if one is going to cover LGBTQ issues fairly.
  - bavent 5y ago
    So should we ban infertile men from marrying, since they can no longer form a “reproductive unit”? How about my wife and I who have decided to not have kids - should we get a divorce?
    - Bostonian 5y ago
      The government does not pry into such details, but the reason why marriage historically consisted of a man and a woman is that they reproduce together. Why are marriages of cousins and closer relatives banned in the U.S.? Because society does not view certain couples as proper reproductive units.
      - bavent 5y ago
        That dosesn’t answer my questions though. You are against same sex marriage because they don’t form a reproductive unit. Infertile people don’t either. By your logic, they shouldn’t be able to get married either. Also, cousin marriages are allowed in about half the U.S. states. A few states that allow it actually require one partner to be infertile - proof that the government does pry into such details.
- toss1 5y ago
  >>If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?" The answer from the [another point of view on the Holocaust] people will of course be "YES". Make no mistake - this is a straight-up attempt to implement a minority rule autocracy in the USA, directly attacking the democracy at every level. This is merely one early sign of what is to come if they are allowed to succeed. NB it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary.
  - effie 5y ago
    > it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary. What do you mean? They have seemingly standard parliamentary elections, last one in 2018, next up is 2022. People voted for Orban and co., and their policies are apparently preferred by majority. So how is it minority rule?
    - toss1 5y ago
      You can say the same about Putin in Russia or Erdoğan in Turkey - they also "won" their elections. It is pseudo-democracy, where all the supposedly independent institutions (judiciary, legislative, academia, press, etc.) have been coopted and/or are under the thumb of the dictator/"elected leader", and what matters is not who votes but who counts the votes (and whose candidates and votes are suppressed or ruled 'illegal'). In the case of Hungary and Orbán, that parliament that you mentioned, back in March 2020, gave him virtually unlimited powers with no end date [1]. These virtually unlimited powers include: - State of emergency w/o time limit - Rule by decree - Parliament suspended - No elections - Spreading fake news + rumors: up to 5 yrs in prison - Leaving quarantine: up to 8 yrs in prison So, that's how. On a side note, I congratulate you for responding. It is really disappointing to see on HN that any mention of how democracy itself is under attack and in serious danger of being lost results in downvote hordes without comments. There is either a big bunch that doesn't want to hear it, or doesn't want it to be heard. At least you engaged in the discussion, so thx! [1]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orban-powers-vote-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orb...
johndoe0815 5y ago
This is the situation in more civilised parts of the world - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial
- unmole 5y ago
  I'm not convinced that outlawing the dissemination of an opinion, no matter how ridiculous or repugnant is a mark of civilization. The whole point of freedom of speech is protecting unpopular speech.
pomian 5y ago
But the ruling states when: "discussing controversial historical, social or political issues" How is the Holocaust, a controversial issue? It's history. It's fact. Therefore, they (the teachers) don't need to teach an opposing view, because there isn't one.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  Some people believe alternative facts.
  - chewz 5y ago
    There is no such thing as alternative facts. There are just facts.
    - WalterGR 5y ago
      Yes, some people believe in non-factual things that they refer to as "alternative facts".

Education by legislation has now reached the apogee of insanity. "If teachers are obliged to tell their classes that there is “another point of view” about whether the Holocaust occurred, must American history lessons now also include books asserting that the United States was never a slave-holding nation or that racism ended with the Emancipation Proclamation? If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"

breckenedge 5y ago
Unfortunate I think it can and will get crazier, and we’re just at the start of it. I’m surprised the teachers haven’t yet organized any opposition or civil disobedience. I couldn’t believe the headline when I first read it, the DMN even has a quote from the legislators saying that the educators “just got it wrong.” Clearly no, it’s just a poorly written, misguided law.
Bostonian 5y ago
'If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?"' A man and a woman are the reproductive unit, and opponents of same sex marriage, including me, do not think the government should be sanctioning and thereby blessing other kinds of unions. A May 2019 Gallup poll found that 36% oppos same sex marriage. I think their views should be understood, if one is going to cover LGBTQ issues fairly.
- bavent 5y ago
  So should we ban infertile men from marrying, since they can no longer form a “reproductive unit”? How about my wife and I who have decided to not have kids - should we get a divorce?
  - Bostonian 5y ago
    The government does not pry into such details, but the reason why marriage historically consisted of a man and a woman is that they reproduce together. Why are marriages of cousins and closer relatives banned in the U.S.? Because society does not view certain couples as proper reproductive units.
    - bavent 5y ago
      That dosesn’t answer my questions though. You are against same sex marriage because they don’t form a reproductive unit. Infertile people don’t either. By your logic, they shouldn’t be able to get married either. Also, cousin marriages are allowed in about half the U.S. states. A few states that allow it actually require one partner to be infertile - proof that the government does pry into such details.
toss1 5y ago
>>If the discussion surrounding a novel or story leads a class to conclude that LGBTQ+ people are entitled to basic human rights, must the class be asked to seriously consider the opposing view: that those rights should be denied to anyone who differs from the heterosexual norm?" The answer from the [another point of view on the Holocaust] people will of course be "YES". Make no mistake - this is a straight-up attempt to implement a minority rule autocracy in the USA, directly attacking the democracy at every level. This is merely one early sign of what is to come if they are allowed to succeed. NB it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary.
- effie 5y ago
  > it has already happened recently in the EU state of Hungary. What do you mean? They have seemingly standard parliamentary elections, last one in 2018, next up is 2022. People voted for Orban and co., and their policies are apparently preferred by majority. So how is it minority rule?
  - toss1 5y ago
    You can say the same about Putin in Russia or Erdoğan in Turkey - they also "won" their elections. It is pseudo-democracy, where all the supposedly independent institutions (judiciary, legislative, academia, press, etc.) have been coopted and/or are under the thumb of the dictator/"elected leader", and what matters is not who votes but who counts the votes (and whose candidates and votes are suppressed or ruled 'illegal'). In the case of Hungary and Orbán, that parliament that you mentioned, back in March 2020, gave him virtually unlimited powers with no end date [1]. These virtually unlimited powers include: - State of emergency w/o time limit - Rule by decree - Parliament suspended - No elections - Spreading fake news + rumors: up to 5 yrs in prison - Leaving quarantine: up to 8 yrs in prison So, that's how. On a side note, I congratulate you for responding. It is really disappointing to see on HN that any mention of how democracy itself is under attack and in serious danger of being lost results in downvote hordes without comments. There is either a big bunch that doesn't want to hear it, or doesn't want it to be heard. At least you engaged in the discussion, so thx! [1]https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orban-powers-vote-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/europe/hungary-viktor-orb...

johndoe0815 5y ago

This is the situation in more civilised parts of the world - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial

unmole 5y ago
I'm not convinced that outlawing the dissemination of an opinion, no matter how ridiculous or repugnant is a mark of civilization. The whole point of freedom of speech is protecting unpopular speech.

pomian 5y ago

But the ruling states when: "discussing controversial historical, social or political issues" How is the Holocaust, a controversial issue? It's history. It's fact. Therefore, they (the teachers) don't need to teach an opposing view, because there isn't one.

WalterGR 5y ago
Some people believe alternative facts.
- chewz 5y ago
  There is no such thing as alternative facts. There are just facts.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    Yes, some people believe in non-factual things that they refer to as "alternative facts".