5 ms·

It's not hard to copy an API specification, but actually implementing the API and changing drawing in every app, toolkit and compositor to support floating poin

by md8z 5y ago

It's not hard to copy an API specification, but actually implementing the API and changing drawing in every app, toolkit and compositor to support floating point is what is going to be complicated and will take time. Edit: The decision to use integer coordinates I believe was made long ago in GTK1 because that's what X11 used, and it just hasn't been changed since. "Especially since with X11 it was at least somewhat possible to do it" X11 never actually supported this and also only uses integers for screen and input coordinates so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I think you are thinking of the app itself doing its own DPI scaling which will also work in wayland, but it will have the same problems where the DPI could mismatch with other apps and with the rest of the desktop. "I’d love to help extending wayland, deprecating GTK3 and GTK4" Well GTK3 is already in maintenance mode, and apps are currently in the process of being ported to GTK4, so first they'll probably want to finish that and get some feedback before starting on GTK5... it will probably be at least a few years before anything related to this could ship.

kuschku 5y ago
GTK2 had an integer DPI variable. GTK3 now just has an integer scale variable. GTK2 could actually render at 144dpi, or 108dpi, just fine. Everything was slightly misaligned, not everything scaled perfectly, but it worked. X11 had an integer Xft.dpi variable. Wayland now just has an integer scale variable. WHY was this downgrade made? If a protocol break could be made to remove this functionality, a protocol break to add it back should be just as justified. Break everything, apparently removing functionality was a good enough reason to do it, re-adding it should be just as well. Yes, I am extremely angry after having spent years yelling at the wayland-wg and gnome devs not to make these decisions, not to put these things into the protocol, and complaining that if an API break is necessary, it should be extensible for these use cases. I’ve been complaining for a decade now and all of the complaints got ignored and instead the mistakes I warned about were made.
- vetinari 5y ago
  > GTK2 could actually render at 144dpi, or 108dpi, just fine. Your definition for just fine must differ from everyone's else. Most GTK2 shipped assets for 96 dpi and that's it. Just try running GIMP on 192 dpi display, with "properly set dpi", for example. You will see yourself that is was not just fine. > WHY was this downgrade made? Because it didn't work. That's why. > If a protocol break could be made to remove this functionality It wasn't protocol break. It was apps either ignoring the facilities (in better case) or being outright broken -> desktop locking on constant values, where everyone was able to test their wares. > protocol break to add it back should be just as justified. Not going to happen. > Break everything, apparently removing functionality was a good enough reason to do it, re-adding it should be just as well. You can start. Show 'em.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    > You can start. Show 'em. I have. I’ve made a custom build from source of my entire desktop environment, changing the scale factor back to a dpi value, and modifying Qt and Gtk2 apps to use that. And it works. You just need to break the wayland protocol and rebuild everything from source, but for over 2 years, I ran that as daily driver setup because I was so pissed off by this decision.
    - vetinari 5y ago
      > modifying Qt and Gtk2 apps You don't get to modify apps -- that's exactly part of the problem being solved; your solution has to work with whatever user throws at it; from Chrome to xeyes, sorry. Oh, and with staged updates too -- it might take some 2 years to adopt your solution, if everyone cooperates (which is a big if); not all distros update at the same time and some do not bother updating for another cycle (see Ubuntu and Wayland).
      - kuschku 5y ago
        Just make it a required feature in Gtk4 and distros and apps will be forced to support it.
        md8z 5y ago
        It's not going to happen in GTK4 because it would be an API break and GTK4 has already shipped. So that's why it will have to wait for GTK5 or greater. Edit: For further explanation see here for a longer description of GTK's release strategy. https://blog.gtk.org/2016/09/01/versioning-and-long-term-stability-promise-in-gtk/ https://blog.gtk.org/2016/09/01/versioning-and-long-term-sta...
        kuschku 5y ago
        See? I’ve complained to the Gtk devs since before the release of Gtk3 that this would be an issue, I’ve even made suggestions how to avoid it, and yet despite all that all I’ve got were "it’s unnecessary" for years. And now the issue is baked in, I’m supposed to wait for even more years and spend lots of time to fix the issues other idiots made because they couldn’t listen.
- md8z 5y ago
  That DPI value AFAIK only changed the text scale, not the scale of widgets. You are thinking of two different things, the GTK3 integer scale actually affects widgets. The Xft.dpi setting also originally only meant text scale but has apparently been overloaded to apply to widgets in Qt? I'm not sure, I haven't tried this recently and I don't use X11. But it's right there in the name: Xft is the X freetype font rendering. I understand your frustration but from what I have seen, nothing has actually been removed. This is just a feature that was never implemented because nobody signed up to implement it. Wayland could be extended to support it eventually but somebody actually has to put in the work. I think the best bet for somebody working on this would be to get it fully working and stable in KDE first, since Qt apparently has the toolkit support for it, and then maybe it can be adapted to work for GTK.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    > I understand your frustration but from what I have seen, nothing has actually been removed. This is just a feature that was never implemented because nobody signed up to implement it. Wayland could be extended to support it eventually but somebody actually has to put in the work. I think the best bet for somebody working on this would be to get it fully working and stable in KDE first, since Qt apparently has the toolkit support for it, and then maybe it can be adapted to work for GTK. The issue with that is that first of all, the wayland protocol needs to be modified to add support for this, and the entire freedesktop/gnome community refuses to even consider adding support for anything like this because gnome doesn’t need it/can’t support it. I’ve talked with vendors of devices using Linux with Wayland, who’ve been trying to get the committee to add support for years. I’ve talked with KDE devs who’ve been frustrated without limits. There’s a lot of people who are absolutely burnt out and angered by the constant stonewalling from Gnome, pretending for a decade that no one needs this and so it shouldn’t even exist.
    - md8z 5y ago
      I really have no idea what you're talking about or what committee you're referring to. KDE can develop its own Wayland extensions and already has a lot of them. They don't need GNOME's approval. I believe they are housed in this git repository. https://invent.kde.org/libraries/plasma-wayland-protocols https://invent.kde.org/libraries/plasma-wayland-protocols Once they become stabilized and if other desktops took an interest, then they could be proposed as standard. But KDE does not need to wait for GNOME to implement a feature in Wayland, or vice versa. If you could mention which KDE developer you were talking to then maybe we could help them get this implemented in KDE first? Then afterwards if they can offer some tips to offer GTK (or other toolkits) on how to implement this, that would be valuable to everyone.
vetinari 5y ago
> and changing drawing in every app Exactly. Nobody is going to update everything what's already out there. For many things, there's not even the source, even if there was a will. There's unbelievable dragging of the feet in the Linux community, so even that will is a big question. These compositors have to play with cards they were dealt, not with cards they wish they had.
- md8z 5y ago
  Sadly I think you will have to accept some of those apps will just never have Windows-style DPI scaling, sorry. It's the same thing with various older apps on Windows that will just not get updated because they use Win32 API functions that are hardcoded to use integers. Maybe you could come up with some clever solution that tricks them into rendering at a different size? I'm really not sure, if you are an expert in this then please help.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    Windows actually modified the old-school Win32 APIs to support DPI scaling recently, so even most WinForms apps get proper DPI scaling. It’s absolutely possible. And as mentioned, switching from dpi as int to scale-factor as int was reason enough to break all software, going back should be just as justified.
    - md8z 5y ago
      If you know the technical details of how that was done in Windows then please help get that implemented. AFAIK those win32 APIs were not changed to take floating point, so there is some other kind of heuristic or something going on there, and I expect it won't work in all cases e.g. if the application itself renders its own backing surfaces and never takes scale into account.
      - kuschku 5y ago
        AFAIK it’s not much different from e.g. Qt. As the protocol between compositor and app includes a full dpi value the toolkit can just render everything at a larger scale, with the same rounding pattern used to ensure everything still fits. Sure, some parts will be slightly offset, and any widget that first renders, requests the rendered data, and post-processes that will be slightly blurry, but it works fine. The same can be done in any environment where the protocol between toolkit and compositor contains enough metadata and applications can tell the compositor that they’re rendering at native scale. So, X11 works, Wayland won’t work until the protocol gets significantly changed. I had a similar patch for my compositor, the protocol libs, and Qt where I just let windows specify that they’re rendering at native scale, and I let Qt handle the scale factor as if QT_SCREEN_SCALE_FACTORS had been set accordingly.

by md8z 5y ago

kuschku 5y ago

GTK2 had an integer DPI variable. GTK3 now just has an integer scale variable. GTK2 could actually render at 144dpi, or 108dpi, just fine. Everything was slightly misaligned, not everything scaled perfectly, but it worked. X11 had an integer Xft.dpi variable. Wayland now just has an integer scale variable. WHY was this downgrade made? If a protocol break could be made to remove this functionality, a protocol break to add it back should be just as justified. Break everything, apparently removing functionality was a good enough reason to do it, re-adding it should be just as well. Yes, I am extremely angry after having spent years yelling at the wayland-wg and gnome devs not to make these decisions, not to put these things into the protocol, and complaining that if an API break is necessary, it should be extensible for these use cases. I’ve been complaining for a decade now and all of the complaints got ignored and instead the mistakes I warned about were made.

vetinari 5y ago
> GTK2 could actually render at 144dpi, or 108dpi, just fine. Your definition for just fine must differ from everyone's else. Most GTK2 shipped assets for 96 dpi and that's it. Just try running GIMP on 192 dpi display, with "properly set dpi", for example. You will see yourself that is was not just fine. > WHY was this downgrade made? Because it didn't work. That's why. > If a protocol break could be made to remove this functionality It wasn't protocol break. It was apps either ignoring the facilities (in better case) or being outright broken -> desktop locking on constant values, where everyone was able to test their wares. > protocol break to add it back should be just as justified. Not going to happen. > Break everything, apparently removing functionality was a good enough reason to do it, re-adding it should be just as well. You can start. Show 'em.
- kuschku 5y ago
  > You can start. Show 'em. I have. I’ve made a custom build from source of my entire desktop environment, changing the scale factor back to a dpi value, and modifying Qt and Gtk2 apps to use that. And it works. You just need to break the wayland protocol and rebuild everything from source, but for over 2 years, I ran that as daily driver setup because I was so pissed off by this decision.
  - vetinari 5y ago
    > modifying Qt and Gtk2 apps You don't get to modify apps -- that's exactly part of the problem being solved; your solution has to work with whatever user throws at it; from Chrome to xeyes, sorry. Oh, and with staged updates too -- it might take some 2 years to adopt your solution, if everyone cooperates (which is a big if); not all distros update at the same time and some do not bother updating for another cycle (see Ubuntu and Wayland).
    - kuschku 5y ago
      Just make it a required feature in Gtk4 and distros and apps will be forced to support it.
      - md8z 5y ago
        It's not going to happen in GTK4 because it would be an API break and GTK4 has already shipped. So that's why it will have to wait for GTK5 or greater. Edit: For further explanation see here for a longer description of GTK's release strategy. https://blog.gtk.org/2016/09/01/versioning-and-long-term-stability-promise-in-gtk/ https://blog.gtk.org/2016/09/01/versioning-and-long-term-sta...
        kuschku 5y ago
        See? I’ve complained to the Gtk devs since before the release of Gtk3 that this would be an issue, I’ve even made suggestions how to avoid it, and yet despite all that all I’ve got were "it’s unnecessary" for years. And now the issue is baked in, I’m supposed to wait for even more years and spend lots of time to fix the issues other idiots made because they couldn’t listen.
md8z 5y ago
That DPI value AFAIK only changed the text scale, not the scale of widgets. You are thinking of two different things, the GTK3 integer scale actually affects widgets. The Xft.dpi setting also originally only meant text scale but has apparently been overloaded to apply to widgets in Qt? I'm not sure, I haven't tried this recently and I don't use X11. But it's right there in the name: Xft is the X freetype font rendering. I understand your frustration but from what I have seen, nothing has actually been removed. This is just a feature that was never implemented because nobody signed up to implement it. Wayland could be extended to support it eventually but somebody actually has to put in the work. I think the best bet for somebody working on this would be to get it fully working and stable in KDE first, since Qt apparently has the toolkit support for it, and then maybe it can be adapted to work for GTK.
- kuschku 5y ago
  > I understand your frustration but from what I have seen, nothing has actually been removed. This is just a feature that was never implemented because nobody signed up to implement it. Wayland could be extended to support it eventually but somebody actually has to put in the work. I think the best bet for somebody working on this would be to get it fully working and stable in KDE first, since Qt apparently has the toolkit support for it, and then maybe it can be adapted to work for GTK. The issue with that is that first of all, the wayland protocol needs to be modified to add support for this, and the entire freedesktop/gnome community refuses to even consider adding support for anything like this because gnome doesn’t need it/can’t support it. I’ve talked with vendors of devices using Linux with Wayland, who’ve been trying to get the committee to add support for years. I’ve talked with KDE devs who’ve been frustrated without limits. There’s a lot of people who are absolutely burnt out and angered by the constant stonewalling from Gnome, pretending for a decade that no one needs this and so it shouldn’t even exist.
  - md8z 5y ago
    I really have no idea what you're talking about or what committee you're referring to. KDE can develop its own Wayland extensions and already has a lot of them. They don't need GNOME's approval. I believe they are housed in this git repository. https://invent.kde.org/libraries/plasma-wayland-protocols https://invent.kde.org/libraries/plasma-wayland-protocols Once they become stabilized and if other desktops took an interest, then they could be proposed as standard. But KDE does not need to wait for GNOME to implement a feature in Wayland, or vice versa. If you could mention which KDE developer you were talking to then maybe we could help them get this implemented in KDE first? Then afterwards if they can offer some tips to offer GTK (or other toolkits) on how to implement this, that would be valuable to everyone.

vetinari 5y ago

> and changing drawing in every app Exactly. Nobody is going to update everything what's already out there. For many things, there's not even the source, even if there was a will. There's unbelievable dragging of the feet in the Linux community, so even that will is a big question. These compositors have to play with cards they were dealt, not with cards they wish they had.

md8z 5y ago
Sadly I think you will have to accept some of those apps will just never have Windows-style DPI scaling, sorry. It's the same thing with various older apps on Windows that will just not get updated because they use Win32 API functions that are hardcoded to use integers. Maybe you could come up with some clever solution that tricks them into rendering at a different size? I'm really not sure, if you are an expert in this then please help.
- kuschku 5y ago
  Windows actually modified the old-school Win32 APIs to support DPI scaling recently, so even most WinForms apps get proper DPI scaling. It’s absolutely possible. And as mentioned, switching from dpi as int to scale-factor as int was reason enough to break all software, going back should be just as justified.
  - md8z 5y ago
    If you know the technical details of how that was done in Windows then please help get that implemented. AFAIK those win32 APIs were not changed to take floating point, so there is some other kind of heuristic or something going on there, and I expect it won't work in all cases e.g. if the application itself renders its own backing surfaces and never takes scale into account.
    - kuschku 5y ago
      AFAIK it’s not much different from e.g. Qt. As the protocol between compositor and app includes a full dpi value the toolkit can just render everything at a larger scale, with the same rounding pattern used to ensure everything still fits. Sure, some parts will be slightly offset, and any widget that first renders, requests the rendered data, and post-processes that will be slightly blurry, but it works fine. The same can be done in any environment where the protocol between toolkit and compositor contains enough metadata and applications can tell the compositor that they’re rendering at native scale. So, X11 works, Wayland won’t work until the protocol gets significantly changed. I had a similar patch for my compositor, the protocol libs, and Qt where I just let windows specify that they’re rendering at native scale, and I let Qt handle the scale factor as if QT_SCREEN_SCALE_FACTORS had been set accordingly.