5 ms·

So it is a real graphics api, just not the one you’d prefer.

by zepto 5y ago

Gigachad 5y ago
It’s not the one the whole gaming industry prefers. And as a result, Mac gaming is limited to a few legacy open GL games and modern mobile shovelware on Apple Arcade.
- mcphage 5y ago
  Given that it's not just on the Mac, but on the Mac & iOS—and the fact that this article claims that Apple's piece of the gaming market is bigger than the console makers combined—that seems like a really large, (relatively) wealthy market to be abandoning?
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    Apples gaming revenue is not on AAA gaming or dedicated gamers. It in micro transaction mobile games that rake in absolute fortunes. Those kind of games don't care what the graphics API is as they are mostly 2d anyway. Apple is clearly doing extremely well for themselves and I'm not claiming it's a mistake on their part. But as a user who enjoys playing games, MacOS is by far the worst system for it. Linux is leagues ahead now due to proton and Vulkan. The hardware is powerful enough for some gaming on macos but nothing supports it. I can get CSGO and RuneScape running reasonably well but those are almost certainly on OpenGL and not Molten. I think the only significant Molten support has been in the pro video / 3D space.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      This definitely seems to be the case. Molten is promising, but extremely basic in it's current form. Getting it to work a-la Valve's Proton would take an unconscionable effort, and that's before you've even figured out how to load the 32-bit libraries that most of these games are going to be lugging along with them. Once you factor in how poorly Wine is maintained on MacOS, I think it's safe to assume that most current games are off the table. You can hope for ports, but like you said, the economics of it don't shake out in favor of the developers. In short, getting games to run in any capacity on MacOS right now is just not worth the effort. Linux was barely able to do it with the full cooperation of the kernel developers. It's a suicide mission on a system like MacOS.
      - Gigachad 5y ago
        It's such a shame because the Macbooks are so close to being the "do everything" machine. I want to sell my gaming desktop because it seems like such a waste to have such an expensive machine sitting there getting used a few hours a week to play games which would run fine on the macbook if it had software support. My hope is that if the macbooks start to take up more of the market, either Apple will cave on Vulkan or Valve will find some way to make proton work.
        smoldesu 5y ago
        I wouldn't count on Valve voluntarily hopping aboard any Mac-specific stuff right now. Vulkan support on M1+ seems a lot more likely to me, but if the new Macbooks sell well I see no reason for Apple to bother adding it. They'll just use it as more ammunition for the 'muh metal' argument that we've all heard ad-nauseam. It's an unfortunate situation indeed, but I'm pretty happy with how Linux handles being my 'do everything' OS as-is. Perhaps by the next big redesign they'll be ready to admit their software faults, too.
    - mcphage 5y ago
      I get what you’re saying, but as an outsider it seems like your reasoning is backwards. The people are there, the money is there. What isn’t there is the developers. But developers see nobody else is there and think “nobody’s making games for this audience, so I’m not going to bother, either”. Sure, but then you’re leaving those billions for King and its ilk.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        Developers don't care. Their job has always been about picking the path of least resistance and moving product, they probably care about the iOS userbase as much as they care about their Star Wars fan demographic. That's before you factor in how hostile Apple is towards cross-platform developers, and by the time you get to picking out a suitable graphics API they'll have probably moved on to a new one. If games programming was about economics, we wouldn't be hiring developers in the first place.
        mcphage 5y ago
        Heh, that's a good point. I guess I should have said "publishers" rather than "developers".

So it is a real graphics api, just not the one you’d prefer.

by zepto 5y ago

So it is a real graphics api, just not the one you’d prefer.

It’s not the one the whole gaming industry prefers. And as a result, Mac gaming is limited to a few legacy open GL games and modern mobile shovelware on Apple Arcade.

mcphage 5y ago
Given that it's not just on the Mac, but on the Mac & iOS—and the fact that this article claims that Apple's piece of the gaming market is bigger than the console makers combined—that seems like a really large, (relatively) wealthy market to be abandoning?
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Apples gaming revenue is not on AAA gaming or dedicated gamers. It in micro transaction mobile games that rake in absolute fortunes. Those kind of games don't care what the graphics API is as they are mostly 2d anyway. Apple is clearly doing extremely well for themselves and I'm not claiming it's a mistake on their part. But as a user who enjoys playing games, MacOS is by far the worst system for it. Linux is leagues ahead now due to proton and Vulkan. The hardware is powerful enough for some gaming on macos but nothing supports it. I can get CSGO and RuneScape running reasonably well but those are almost certainly on OpenGL and not Molten. I think the only significant Molten support has been in the pro video / 3D space.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    This definitely seems to be the case. Molten is promising, but extremely basic in it's current form. Getting it to work a-la Valve's Proton would take an unconscionable effort, and that's before you've even figured out how to load the 32-bit libraries that most of these games are going to be lugging along with them. Once you factor in how poorly Wine is maintained on MacOS, I think it's safe to assume that most current games are off the table. You can hope for ports, but like you said, the economics of it don't shake out in favor of the developers. In short, getting games to run in any capacity on MacOS right now is just not worth the effort. Linux was barely able to do it with the full cooperation of the kernel developers. It's a suicide mission on a system like MacOS.
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      It's such a shame because the Macbooks are so close to being the "do everything" machine. I want to sell my gaming desktop because it seems like such a waste to have such an expensive machine sitting there getting used a few hours a week to play games which would run fine on the macbook if it had software support. My hope is that if the macbooks start to take up more of the market, either Apple will cave on Vulkan or Valve will find some way to make proton work.
      - smoldesu 5y ago
        I wouldn't count on Valve voluntarily hopping aboard any Mac-specific stuff right now. Vulkan support on M1+ seems a lot more likely to me, but if the new Macbooks sell well I see no reason for Apple to bother adding it. They'll just use it as more ammunition for the 'muh metal' argument that we've all heard ad-nauseam. It's an unfortunate situation indeed, but I'm pretty happy with how Linux handles being my 'do everything' OS as-is. Perhaps by the next big redesign they'll be ready to admit their software faults, too.
  - mcphage 5y ago
    I get what you’re saying, but as an outsider it seems like your reasoning is backwards. The people are there, the money is there. What isn’t there is the developers. But developers see nobody else is there and think “nobody’s making games for this audience, so I’m not going to bother, either”. Sure, but then you’re leaving those billions for King and its ilk.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Developers don't care. Their job has always been about picking the path of least resistance and moving product, they probably care about the iOS userbase as much as they care about their Star Wars fan demographic. That's before you factor in how hostile Apple is towards cross-platform developers, and by the time you get to picking out a suitable graphics API they'll have probably moved on to a new one. If games programming was about economics, we wouldn't be hiring developers in the first place.
      - mcphage 5y ago
        Heh, that's a good point. I guess I should have said "publishers" rather than "developers".