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> images automatically pulled in from from various sources such as messages As far as I am aware, this is false and there is no mechanism on iOS by which image

> images automatically pulled in from from various sources such as messages As far as I am aware, this is false and there is no mechanism on iOS by which images are "automatically pulled into" the photo library from anywhere, Messages or otherwise. Do you have a source or an example of how that could happen? (edit: people are mentioning Whatsapp, which I guess has an option to auto-save received photos. Fair enough, but that's a third-party app and requires you to enable photos access anyway, so it's pretty clearly not what the parent meant). > their intent is to scan all photos in your photo library, on your device ... if you have iCloud photos enabled Yes, that's what I said. Enabling iCloud photos uploads your photo library to the cloud, so it's scanning your cloud photos.

flutas 5y ago
> As far as I am aware, there is no mechanism on iOS by which images are "automatically pulled into" iCloud photos from anywhere, Messages or otherwise. Do you have a source or an example of how that could happen? When I receive images from my friends, they don't go into my photo library until I explicitly tap "save". Per Apple [0] >Shared with You works across the system to find the (...) photos, and more that are shared in Messages conversations, and conveniently surfaces them in apps like Photos (...) making it easy to quickly access the information in context. --- >Yes, that's what I said. Enabling iCloud photos uploads your photo library to the cloud, so it's scanning your cloud photos. Being disingenuous about it is still a thing though. You stated > More accurately put, their intent is to scan cloud photos (...) (like every other cloud provider, including Google) which makes it appear that the photos are only scanned server side "like every other cloud provider". Client side scanning is something that no other provider does, in contrast to what you stated. [0]: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/06/ios-15-brings-powerful-new-features-to-stay-connected-focus-explore-and-more/#:~:text=Shared%20with%20You,information%20in%20context https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/06/ios-15-brings-powerfu....
- marcellus23 5y ago
  Shared with You does not actually save the images to your photo library. It just surfaces them inside the Photos app. I will admit it's not very clear from the press release, but those are the facts. I was not being disingenuous, frankly. I said that Apple is scanning your cloud photos, i.e. they are scanning photos that are uploaded to the cloud. Photos not being uploaded to the cloud are not scanned. I made no claims about where the scanning is happening, and I'm not particularly sure why it matters in any material sense.
  - virgilp 5y ago
    You are thoroughly misrepresenting what Apple does. I initially thought you don't know what they do, but apparently you do very well. Still: they scan photos locally - those are not cloud photos, those are local photos. And they have deployed the technical capability. You can bet that once capability exists, they will bend to government demands - there's ample precedent for that. SO, yes, Apple, unlike all others, scans your photos locally. If they are going to be uploaded to cloud, or if they are forced to.
    - marcellus23 5y ago
      > Still: they scan photos locally - those are not cloud photos, those are local photos. They are cloud photos. I say that because: 1. The photos are in the process of being uploaded to the cloud when they are scanned 2. The result of the scan is attached to the photo only when it is uploaded to the cloud. If the photo is deleted from the cloud, or the upload is canceled, the scan result is discarded Practically, the system works precisely the same whether or not the scanning happens on device before the image reaches the cloud, or on the server after the image reaches the cloud. The only well-intentioned argument about why on-device vs. on-server scanning matters is that "slippery slope" argument, which presupposes that: 1. Apple putting this scanning code in iOS not only somehow makes it easier/more tempting to use it for non-CSAM, but all but guarantees it will be used for non-CSAM. 2. Apple does not already have the ability to run whatever code they want, on any of your devices, without you ever knowing 3. Apple folds very easily to government demands, especially when it comes to privacy, their core differentiator I don't think any of these are true. You might think they are, but then I'm not sure what point there is in discussing any more. > or if they are forced to. I'm not sure what this implies. If someone forces you to upload a photo to the cloud, surely that will get scanned regardless of whether the scanning is performed on-device or on-server?
      - throwaway122905 5y ago
        This conversation is rather bizarre. The input to the scanning system is a sequence of bits, read from the flash memory in the phone. Therefore, the scanning is local. There's really nothing more to it: The distinction is based on where the input is read from, in addition to where the input is processed. Both are happening inside the phone while you hold it in your hand. It is scanning images locally. This is totally unacceptable, and should never become acceptable.
vultour 5y ago
WhatsApp has a "Save to Camera Roll" option which automatically saves all images and videos to your photo library.
gigel82 5y ago
I know Whatsapp photos that I never even opened (from groups I probably muted long ago) end up in the phone library whenever I do the (manual) monthly photo dump to my PC. But yes, I agree with the comment, there's no reason to hide between details: Apple plans to introduce the capability of scanning photos on your local device and comparing hashes against an opaque (non-reviewable) list of hashes that they (along with governments) control (details about how they plan to initially employ this capability are irrelevant).
- marcellus23 5y ago
  Sure, but then don't pretend that this is not something every other cloud provider is doing (and has been doing) for years. This is only such a hot-button issue because 1) people love bashing Apple, and 2) Apple actually solicited feedback instead of implementing it silently behind the scenes.
  - peakaboo 5y ago
    It's interesting how our minds just give up when we realize all cloud providers are doing it. We accept our fate as weak consumers, unable to do anything.
  - gigel82 5y ago
    Oh, I totally know all cloud providers are scanning photos in their cloud and I totally accepted that (hence why I mentioned I do manual photo drops from the phone and upload them to private cloud storage). What no one has done before and what I totally don't accept is someone scanning photos on my device, which is what Apple is doing. The in the cloud vs. on your device aspect of this debate is the most important part and cannot be glossed over.
    - kemayo 5y ago
      > The in the cloud vs. on your device aspect of this debate is the most important part and cannot be glossed over. I really do think it's a weird aspect to fixate on, though. So long as Apple is only scanning the photos that're being uploaded to its servers, it genuinely doesn't matter to me where that scanning happens. It's a scan that could have happened in either location, and the version where it's happening locally is arguably more private/secure-from-fishing-expeditions. If I don't like that the scanning occurs, I can disable the uploading. The distinction would matter if the local-scan involved things that weren't being uploaded. But it doesn't, so from my perspective the only difference is an implementation detail.

flutas 5y ago

> As far as I am aware, there is no mechanism on iOS by which images are "automatically pulled into" iCloud photos from anywhere, Messages or otherwise. Do you have a source or an example of how that could happen? When I receive images from my friends, they don't go into my photo library until I explicitly tap "save". Per Apple [0] >Shared with You works across the system to find the (...) photos, and more that are shared in Messages conversations, and conveniently surfaces them in apps like Photos (...) making it easy to quickly access the information in context. --- >Yes, that's what I said. Enabling iCloud photos uploads your photo library to the cloud, so it's scanning your cloud photos. Being disingenuous about it is still a thing though. You stated > More accurately put, their intent is to scan cloud photos (...) (like every other cloud provider, including Google) which makes it appear that the photos are only scanned server side "like every other cloud provider". Client side scanning is something that no other provider does, in contrast to what you stated. [0]: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/06/ios-15-brings-powerful-new-features-to-stay-connected-focus-explore-and-more/#:~:text=Shared%20with%20You,information%20in%20context https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/06/ios-15-brings-powerfu....

marcellus23 5y ago
Shared with You does not actually save the images to your photo library. It just surfaces them inside the Photos app. I will admit it's not very clear from the press release, but those are the facts. I was not being disingenuous, frankly. I said that Apple is scanning your cloud photos, i.e. they are scanning photos that are uploaded to the cloud. Photos not being uploaded to the cloud are not scanned. I made no claims about where the scanning is happening, and I'm not particularly sure why it matters in any material sense.
- virgilp 5y ago
  You are thoroughly misrepresenting what Apple does. I initially thought you don't know what they do, but apparently you do very well. Still: they scan photos locally - those are not cloud photos, those are local photos. And they have deployed the technical capability. You can bet that once capability exists, they will bend to government demands - there's ample precedent for that. SO, yes, Apple, unlike all others, scans your photos locally. If they are going to be uploaded to cloud, or if they are forced to.
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    > Still: they scan photos locally - those are not cloud photos, those are local photos. They are cloud photos. I say that because: 1. The photos are in the process of being uploaded to the cloud when they are scanned 2. The result of the scan is attached to the photo only when it is uploaded to the cloud. If the photo is deleted from the cloud, or the upload is canceled, the scan result is discarded Practically, the system works precisely the same whether or not the scanning happens on device before the image reaches the cloud, or on the server after the image reaches the cloud. The only well-intentioned argument about why on-device vs. on-server scanning matters is that "slippery slope" argument, which presupposes that: 1. Apple putting this scanning code in iOS not only somehow makes it easier/more tempting to use it for non-CSAM, but all but guarantees it will be used for non-CSAM. 2. Apple does not already have the ability to run whatever code they want, on any of your devices, without you ever knowing 3. Apple folds very easily to government demands, especially when it comes to privacy, their core differentiator I don't think any of these are true. You might think they are, but then I'm not sure what point there is in discussing any more. > or if they are forced to. I'm not sure what this implies. If someone forces you to upload a photo to the cloud, surely that will get scanned regardless of whether the scanning is performed on-device or on-server?
    - throwaway122905 5y ago
      This conversation is rather bizarre. The input to the scanning system is a sequence of bits, read from the flash memory in the phone. Therefore, the scanning is local. There's really nothing more to it: The distinction is based on where the input is read from, in addition to where the input is processed. Both are happening inside the phone while you hold it in your hand. It is scanning images locally. This is totally unacceptable, and should never become acceptable.

vultour 5y ago

WhatsApp has a "Save to Camera Roll" option which automatically saves all images and videos to your photo library.

gigel82 5y ago

I know Whatsapp photos that I never even opened (from groups I probably muted long ago) end up in the phone library whenever I do the (manual) monthly photo dump to my PC. But yes, I agree with the comment, there's no reason to hide between details: Apple plans to introduce the capability of scanning photos on your local device and comparing hashes against an opaque (non-reviewable) list of hashes that they (along with governments) control (details about how they plan to initially employ this capability are irrelevant).

marcellus23 5y ago
Sure, but then don't pretend that this is not something every other cloud provider is doing (and has been doing) for years. This is only such a hot-button issue because 1) people love bashing Apple, and 2) Apple actually solicited feedback instead of implementing it silently behind the scenes.
- peakaboo 5y ago
  It's interesting how our minds just give up when we realize all cloud providers are doing it. We accept our fate as weak consumers, unable to do anything.
- gigel82 5y ago
  Oh, I totally know all cloud providers are scanning photos in their cloud and I totally accepted that (hence why I mentioned I do manual photo drops from the phone and upload them to private cloud storage). What no one has done before and what I totally don't accept is someone scanning photos on my device, which is what Apple is doing. The in the cloud vs. on your device aspect of this debate is the most important part and cannot be glossed over.
  - kemayo 5y ago
    > The in the cloud vs. on your device aspect of this debate is the most important part and cannot be glossed over. I really do think it's a weird aspect to fixate on, though. So long as Apple is only scanning the photos that're being uploaded to its servers, it genuinely doesn't matter to me where that scanning happens. It's a scan that could have happened in either location, and the version where it's happening locally is arguably more private/secure-from-fishing-expeditions. If I don't like that the scanning occurs, I can disable the uploading. The distinction would matter if the local-scan involved things that weren't being uploaded. But it doesn't, so from my perspective the only difference is an implementation detail.