6 ms·

>The tech industry broadly relies on H-1B visas to plug gaps in their technical workforce, Does America not have schools or would Facebook rather just underpay

by kfprt 5y ago

>The tech industry broadly relies on H-1B visas to plug gaps in their technical workforce, Does America not have schools or would Facebook rather just underpay foreigners? 14$ million is peanuts compared to the scope of H1B fraud.

jorblumesea 5y ago
For FB, the H1B is largely used for pretty smart people across the globe. Their talent bar is high and so are the salaries. It truly is bringing in the best and brightest from around the world. There's also the debate about how confusing/outdated the PERM process can be. For the WITCH companies, it's likely undercutting American talent. Which is why the lawsuit is so ridiculous, why not go after the real perpetrators of H1B problems, consulting companies. Cognizant for example, known abuser of the system to bring in low cost exploitable talent. There's so much shady going on in the system but FB is probably one of the better actors.
- verifyitnow 5y ago
  wrong. At facebook, which is classified as h1b dependent having over 15% foreign nationals, and likely over 50% foreign nationals there is corruption. Virtually all interviews and hiring decisions are made by h1b foreign nationals. It is ludicrous to say they would fairly evaluate US citizens who do not support immigration which is supplying thezs h1bs with $300k per year jobs.
- kfprt 5y ago
  Pray tell what special skills a foreign "art director" has than an American doesn't?
  - jorblumesea 5y ago
    There's a lot of nuance to this issue, it's not that simple. I say this as a 6th generation American. Here's a good write up: https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-doj-lawsuit-unfair-h1b-workers-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-doj-lawsuit-unfair-...
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    > Pray tell what special skills a foreign "art director" has than an American doesn't? If the position is for a company that specializes in French designs, I think it's likely that a French art director might have a better understanding of the domain than an American does. I like how Hollywood gets a free pass on this. I wonder how it would look with American-only actors.
- boglurker 5y ago
  I thought another reason H1Bs are preferred by tech companies is because it limits the opportunities that your high skilled employee have access to, as far as I'm aware it's harder and riskier to switch jobs without getting deported if you're on a H1B visa which means the employees will put up with worse treatment and worse wages compared to native colleagues, though I'm fuzzy on the specifics
  - alxhill 5y ago
    It's harder but very much possible to switch company on an H1B visa - my partner did this recently and while there's a bunch of legal work and waiting around, for tech companies it's all just part of the process.
  - chovybizzass 5y ago
    It's called "indentured servants"
  - jorblumesea 5y ago
    The system is used by various players for various means. For places like Amazon, I'd be more inclined to believe those kinds of stories. For FB specifically, as it pertains to this case and lawsuit, I'd be less inclined to believe that they are specifically selecting for abusable people on visa. The WITCH consulting companies absolutely use the visa in terrible ways.
  - bryan0 5y ago
    I can't speak for FB, but in my experience, you don't seek H1B holders out. Instead you recruit the best talent, and if the person you want to hire requires an H1B, then you jump through the legal hoops necessary to bring them onboard.
    - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
      This. My company (Fortune 100) tells me not to discuss immigration status during the interview process. Oftentimes, the first time I discover that I'm hiring a candidate that's on an H-1B is when I find out they're going to be in the onboarding pipeline for longer due to immigration-related paperwork. It certainly doesn't figure into hiring decisions or compensation.
- Beaver117 5y ago
  I think the WITCH companies supply contracts to FB too right?
causi 5y ago
Facebook was doing the opposite. accused the social-media company of illegally reserving lucrative jobs for immigrant workers it was sponsoring for permanent residence instead of searching for and considering available U.S. workers.
- Levitz 5y ago
  I think everybody rightly assumes they reserved those spots precisely so they could underpay them.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    One can dispute the facts of the article, but the quoted sentence specifically says 'lucrative'.
  - random314 5y ago
    Facebook pays new grads 200K and Staff engineers 700K. Had to call it underpayment.
outworlder 5y ago
> compared to the scope of H1B fraud. Which is largely overblown for political gain. Some companies abuse/have abused the program - mostly large consultancies. Focus on that. H1 is a US superpower. Companies can pick brains among the entire planet(many of those brains WANT to be picked). At essentially no cost to the country. Yes, each one will 'take' a job, but how many jobs are created by immigrants? The yearly cap is 65k. One Elon Musk generates more than that. > underpay Check the article, it is talking about "lucrative" jobs. > Does America not have schools Are you talking about the ridiculously expensive universities(and higher education in general)? Maybe fix that?
- kfprt 5y ago
  >Are you talking about the ridiculously expensive universities(and higher education in general)? Maybe fix that? Interesting question that. I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities. Of course no general education could ever be perfectly aligned with the individual needs of millions of unique positions at different corporations. The fix here is for companies to reopen their own training pipelines.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities. As a university professor, hoo boy is that a bad bet. I have a lot of goals in the classroom, but training future employees is not one of them; and, despite the corporatist mindset of my (and I suspect most) university's administration, there is no guidance from the university that that should be a goal.
    - kfprt 5y ago
      Yeah, it's a bad fit. Doesn't mean that wasn't the corporate intent.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago

by kfprt 5y ago

jorblumesea 5y ago

For FB, the H1B is largely used for pretty smart people across the globe. Their talent bar is high and so are the salaries. It truly is bringing in the best and brightest from around the world. There's also the debate about how confusing/outdated the PERM process can be. For the WITCH companies, it's likely undercutting American talent. Which is why the lawsuit is so ridiculous, why not go after the real perpetrators of H1B problems, consulting companies. Cognizant for example, known abuser of the system to bring in low cost exploitable talent. There's so much shady going on in the system but FB is probably one of the better actors.

verifyitnow 5y ago
wrong. At facebook, which is classified as h1b dependent having over 15% foreign nationals, and likely over 50% foreign nationals there is corruption. Virtually all interviews and hiring decisions are made by h1b foreign nationals. It is ludicrous to say they would fairly evaluate US citizens who do not support immigration which is supplying thezs h1bs with $300k per year jobs.
kfprt 5y ago
Pray tell what special skills a foreign "art director" has than an American doesn't?
- jorblumesea 5y ago
  There's a lot of nuance to this issue, it's not that simple. I say this as a 6th generation American. Here's a good write up: https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-doj-lawsuit-unfair-h1b-workers-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-doj-lawsuit-unfair-...
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  > Pray tell what special skills a foreign "art director" has than an American doesn't? If the position is for a company that specializes in French designs, I think it's likely that a French art director might have a better understanding of the domain than an American does. I like how Hollywood gets a free pass on this. I wonder how it would look with American-only actors.
boglurker 5y ago
I thought another reason H1Bs are preferred by tech companies is because it limits the opportunities that your high skilled employee have access to, as far as I'm aware it's harder and riskier to switch jobs without getting deported if you're on a H1B visa which means the employees will put up with worse treatment and worse wages compared to native colleagues, though I'm fuzzy on the specifics
- alxhill 5y ago
  It's harder but very much possible to switch company on an H1B visa - my partner did this recently and while there's a bunch of legal work and waiting around, for tech companies it's all just part of the process.
- chovybizzass 5y ago
  It's called "indentured servants"
- jorblumesea 5y ago
  The system is used by various players for various means. For places like Amazon, I'd be more inclined to believe those kinds of stories. For FB specifically, as it pertains to this case and lawsuit, I'd be less inclined to believe that they are specifically selecting for abusable people on visa. The WITCH consulting companies absolutely use the visa in terrible ways.
- bryan0 5y ago
  I can't speak for FB, but in my experience, you don't seek H1B holders out. Instead you recruit the best talent, and if the person you want to hire requires an H1B, then you jump through the legal hoops necessary to bring them onboard.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    This. My company (Fortune 100) tells me not to discuss immigration status during the interview process. Oftentimes, the first time I discover that I'm hiring a candidate that's on an H-1B is when I find out they're going to be in the onboarding pipeline for longer due to immigration-related paperwork. It certainly doesn't figure into hiring decisions or compensation.
Beaver117 5y ago
I think the WITCH companies supply contracts to FB too right?

causi 5y ago

Facebook was doing the opposite. accused the social-media company of illegally reserving lucrative jobs for immigrant workers it was sponsoring for permanent residence instead of searching for and considering available U.S. workers.

Levitz 5y ago
I think everybody rightly assumes they reserved those spots precisely so they could underpay them.
- JadeNB 5y ago
  One can dispute the facts of the article, but the quoted sentence specifically says 'lucrative'.
- random314 5y ago
  Facebook pays new grads 200K and Staff engineers 700K. Had to call it underpayment.

outworlder 5y ago

> compared to the scope of H1B fraud. Which is largely overblown for political gain. Some companies abuse/have abused the program - mostly large consultancies. Focus on that. H1 is a US superpower. Companies can pick brains among the entire planet(many of those brains WANT to be picked). At essentially no cost to the country. Yes, each one will 'take' a job, but how many jobs are created by immigrants? The yearly cap is 65k. One Elon Musk generates more than that. > underpay Check the article, it is talking about "lucrative" jobs. > Does America not have schools Are you talking about the ridiculously expensive universities(and higher education in general)? Maybe fix that?

kfprt 5y ago
>Are you talking about the ridiculously expensive universities(and higher education in general)? Maybe fix that? Interesting question that. I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities. Of course no general education could ever be perfectly aligned with the individual needs of millions of unique positions at different corporations. The fix here is for companies to reopen their own training pipelines.
- JadeNB 5y ago
  > I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities. As a university professor, hoo boy is that a bad bet. I have a lot of goals in the classroom, but training future employees is not one of them; and, despite the corporatist mindset of my (and I suspect most) university's administration, there is no guidance from the university that that should be a goal.
  - kfprt 5y ago
    Yeah, it's a bad fit. Doesn't mean that wasn't the corporate intent.
BitwiseFool 5y ago