6 ms·

It is not 50% less performance; on hardware from the last 10+ years, it should not be noticeable. Neither in performance, nor in energy. If anything, it should

It is not 50% less performance; on hardware from the last 10+ years, it should not be noticeable. Neither in performance, nor in energy. If anything, it should be more performant and less buggy, becuase instead of complicating the software, you solve the problem with dedicated circuitry, that is already part of the output encoder anyway.

kuschku 5y ago
Not noticeable is interesting. What hardware from the past 10 years are you using that rendering 3D games in browser or shader websites at 6K vs 4K resolution makes no difference? I’m already struggling to get enough fps at 4K, with Gnome rendering it at 6K and downscaling to 4K my performance is even worse. That’s using an RX 5700XT, a GPU that in the current absurd market retails over $1000. And as Gnome ensured that neither GTK nor Wayland expose any non-integer scale factors, or support it, browsers on linux have no way to render at native resolutions and handle scaling themselves, which would improve my performance situation significantly.
- vetinari 5y ago
  If you have games, run them fullscreen. Fullscreen surfaces will get removed from composited desktop, scaled independently and can run at arbitrary resolutions.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    How do I run https://www.shadertoy.com/ https://www.shadertoy.com/ in native fullscreen? How do I actually multitask while doing that? At 1.5x even my Ryzen 9 3900X and RX 5700XT are stuttering to show many shadertoy examples at 4K, where the performance at 1x is more than acceptable. Simply: Gnome (and Wayland) is broken, and this API must be changed. EDIT: For https://www.shadertoy.com/view/ss3SD8 https://www.shadertoy.com/view/ss3SD8 the difference on my laptop for example is 1280x720 at 1.4fps (1.25x scale) or 850x450 at 17fps (1.0x scale). That’s a massive difference, and enough to be the difference between usable and unusable.
    - vetinari 5y ago
      We can point out corner cases for both approaches till cows come home. Yes, both of them have advantages and disadvantages, engineering is about picking the right compromise. So yes, there will be cases where you would be better of with the other approach... for a while. But the approach is not being picked just for today and for the current state of tech. For the same reason, you won't lock yourself into unnecessarily complicated software that is going to be permanently buggy, and to be obsolete soon -- just like you would not appreciate being locked into Psion/Symbian-like memory management today, despite making sense, solving a problem and being more effective years ago. This is exactly the same case. That software is going to stay here for decades... you RX 5700XT is not.
    - md8z 5y ago
      "Gnome (and Wayland) is broken, and this API must be changed." Again I would say no, that's wrong, it's just not currently meant to run on your hardware. If you know how to change this API then please help. AFAIK there is no one working on this currently. To solve the problem, it really needs someone who is committed to getting it working on the type of hardware that you have and who can champion that use case. If that's not you then you'll have to wait (indefinitely) until that person shows up, if they do at all. Also, shadertoy is a really bad test case as those are more like demos, they aren't optimized and are just made to show how much you can do by computing things on the fly in a shader. A real program you'd see in production would make better use of GPU memory and wouldn't hammer the GPU cores so hard.
      - nextaccountic 5y ago
        > "Gnome (and Wayland) is broken, and this API must be changed." > Again I would say no, that's wrong, it's just not currently meant to run on your hardware. It' absurd that not running on common hardware is, somehow, not broken.
      - kuschku 5y ago
        What’s so complicated about just copying Windows, Android or Qt 1:1? I’ve got all my time already full with jobs, projects, and other stuff I’m working on, if I’d find time, I’d love to help extending wayland, deprecating GTK3 and GTK4, and modifying the software accordingly. I’ve made custom patches for the same purpose in the past already, but I just don’t have the time. Especially since with X11 it was at least somewhat possible to do it, but now with wayland it’s sadly enforced in the protocol to only use 8-bit sRGB and integer scale factors. If I ever find the person responsible for that decision...

kuschku 5y ago

Not noticeable is interesting. What hardware from the past 10 years are you using that rendering 3D games in browser or shader websites at 6K vs 4K resolution makes no difference? I’m already struggling to get enough fps at 4K, with Gnome rendering it at 6K and downscaling to 4K my performance is even worse. That’s using an RX 5700XT, a GPU that in the current absurd market retails over $1000. And as Gnome ensured that neither GTK nor Wayland expose any non-integer scale factors, or support it, browsers on linux have no way to render at native resolutions and handle scaling themselves, which would improve my performance situation significantly.

vetinari 5y ago
If you have games, run them fullscreen. Fullscreen surfaces will get removed from composited desktop, scaled independently and can run at arbitrary resolutions.
- kuschku 5y ago
  How do I run https://www.shadertoy.com/ https://www.shadertoy.com/ in native fullscreen? How do I actually multitask while doing that? At 1.5x even my Ryzen 9 3900X and RX 5700XT are stuttering to show many shadertoy examples at 4K, where the performance at 1x is more than acceptable. Simply: Gnome (and Wayland) is broken, and this API must be changed. EDIT: For https://www.shadertoy.com/view/ss3SD8 https://www.shadertoy.com/view/ss3SD8 the difference on my laptop for example is 1280x720 at 1.4fps (1.25x scale) or 850x450 at 17fps (1.0x scale). That’s a massive difference, and enough to be the difference between usable and unusable.
  - vetinari 5y ago
    We can point out corner cases for both approaches till cows come home. Yes, both of them have advantages and disadvantages, engineering is about picking the right compromise. So yes, there will be cases where you would be better of with the other approach... for a while. But the approach is not being picked just for today and for the current state of tech. For the same reason, you won't lock yourself into unnecessarily complicated software that is going to be permanently buggy, and to be obsolete soon -- just like you would not appreciate being locked into Psion/Symbian-like memory management today, despite making sense, solving a problem and being more effective years ago. This is exactly the same case. That software is going to stay here for decades... you RX 5700XT is not.
  - md8z 5y ago
    "Gnome (and Wayland) is broken, and this API must be changed." Again I would say no, that's wrong, it's just not currently meant to run on your hardware. If you know how to change this API then please help. AFAIK there is no one working on this currently. To solve the problem, it really needs someone who is committed to getting it working on the type of hardware that you have and who can champion that use case. If that's not you then you'll have to wait (indefinitely) until that person shows up, if they do at all. Also, shadertoy is a really bad test case as those are more like demos, they aren't optimized and are just made to show how much you can do by computing things on the fly in a shader. A real program you'd see in production would make better use of GPU memory and wouldn't hammer the GPU cores so hard.
    - nextaccountic 5y ago
      > "Gnome (and Wayland) is broken, and this API must be changed." > Again I would say no, that's wrong, it's just not currently meant to run on your hardware. It' absurd that not running on common hardware is, somehow, not broken.
    - kuschku 5y ago
      What’s so complicated about just copying Windows, Android or Qt 1:1? I’ve got all my time already full with jobs, projects, and other stuff I’m working on, if I’d find time, I’d love to help extending wayland, deprecating GTK3 and GTK4, and modifying the software accordingly. I’ve made custom patches for the same purpose in the past already, but I just don’t have the time. Especially since with X11 it was at least somewhat possible to do it, but now with wayland it’s sadly enforced in the protocol to only use 8-bit sRGB and integer scale factors. If I ever find the person responsible for that decision...