4 ms·

Gotcha. So, legally speaking, the victim of the crime here is Netflix, and if the exec had performed the same activities with the express permission of someone

Gotcha. So, legally speaking, the victim of the crime here is Netflix, and if the exec had performed the same activities with the express permission of someone within Netflix with the authority to authorize such things (IDK, board of directors?) it would not have been illegal? Is there additional/secondary fraud against the vendors as well, or is the fraud strictly against the employer in this situation? (Edit: Board of Director approval is totally hypothetical, I understand that no BoD would ever actually condone such a thing.) (Edit: Thanks for the clarification, everyone!)

earthscienceman 5y ago
This is exactly why I'm confused. I would also like this clarified.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I can't imagine any BoD would be cool with an executive responsible for signing deals getting essentially paid for signing those deals given what a clear conflict of interest that would be. And the BoD itself would probably be found to be failing their fiduciary responsibility under those circumstances.
  - spenczar5 5y ago
    I could imagine some slippier cases. A lot of successful startup executives have a bunch of money and invest it in startups. They (of course) pick ones that they think will do a good job in their space. It isn't that crazy to imagine them recommending using a startup they've invested in, and it's also possible to imagine them making a convincing case to a board that the startup is the best option available. They still can profit massively from that, though, so it's still kind of messy territory.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      I don't really disagree. Just because there's a potential conflict of interest doesn't mean there's corruption. And the further you get from large companies with internal audit teams and established procurement practices the fewer controls there are the murkier things can get. Per the peer comment, if you don't disclose the conflict, and let the BoD decide what to do in light of that conflict, then you're into the realm of looking like you're hiding something.
      - jsmith99 5y ago
        It's the principal/agent problem. If the director is an agent of the shareholders then conflict of interest IS corruption unless you have some sort of safeguard to stop it affecting your behaviour.
    - jsmith99 5y ago
      That's not a grey area at all. If you are a director and you are pushing your board to drive business to a company you have a significant stake in, you MUST disclose that. A grey area would be more like whether you should offer to leave the meeting while they discuss the proposal.
      - spenczar5 5y ago
        Yep, I agree. I was responding to the comment from ghaff that they "can't imagine any BoD would be cool" with a deal getting signed in a clear conflict of interest. I can imagine a board going along with it. Of course, the conflict definitely needs to be disclosed!
        ghaff 5y ago
        Oh I agree. I was really talking about the kickback case as in here. There are other types of conflicts which happen and may be fine so long as the person in question isn't making the decision on their own and, as you say, has disclosed it.
  - stadium 5y ago
    What are the disclosure laws if an exec has a stake in a public or private company, and there is an actual or potential vendor relationship with that company? Are there even laws for this, or is it more about company policies set by the BoD?
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      Usually disclose and recuse. You’re conflicted, so you shouldn’t make the decision or be involved in making the decision, but if it’s the best vendor for the company the company isn’t prohibited from using their services. Most large companies will have a policy for declaring and managing that type of conflict. In addition to generic criminal laws against fraud and bribery there’s also honest services fraud (which I’ve mentioned elsewhere in this thread) which boils down to depriving someone to whom you owe a duty of the right to your honest services.
tptacek 5y ago
The vendors effectively helped defraud Netflix. If Kail initiated the scheme, demanding kickbacks for deals to move forward (as seems likely to be the case given the number of vendors involved) they're unlikely to face consequences, but they're morally culpable regardless. It is not unlawful to offer incentives to the company itself in order for them to make a deal. In fact, that's effectively how most deals close (the incentive is usually simply monetary and takes the form of a discount). The problem here is that Kail abused his position as an agent of Netflix to profit at their expense.
- tcbawo 5y ago
  What seems especially common are indirect incentives such as dinners, drinks, vacations, and other entertainment perks.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Dinner and drinks are ok as long as they are not excessive and in line with the expected return for the company, say two people discussing business over lunch or dinner, with a maximum of $x / head. Fairly typical companies will have very explicit rules about what is and is not permitted to the point of spelling out exactly how much you are allowed to spend on a business relationship and the reverse: what to do when/if you are offered an invitation to join for dinner and who is to bear the expense. Vacations are typically forbidden and would immediately be seen as a bribe. This has led to all kinds of things that are practically vacations but officially are business (such as: conferences in sunny resorts, conferences that take three weeks and so on). Other 'entertainment' can come in many different forms and if not disclosed can get both parties in hot water. On the whole, pay your own way, do not accept anything that might be construed as a bribe afterwards (so no discount on that shiny item from the company you are deciding to do business with, or not), no gifts over a very low dollar value and in case of doubt clear with legal/linemanager/accountant, transparency is key here, just a failure to disclose can turn an otherwise innocent thing into a potential bribe. It's really not all that hard to keep your nose clean.
  - notyourday 5y ago
    Walmart procurement has very strict rules where if they accept any incentives i.e. dinner, drinks, vacation, entertainment, etc are grounds for immediate termination.

earthscienceman 5y ago

This is exactly why I'm confused. I would also like this clarified.

ghaff 5y ago
I can't imagine any BoD would be cool with an executive responsible for signing deals getting essentially paid for signing those deals given what a clear conflict of interest that would be. And the BoD itself would probably be found to be failing their fiduciary responsibility under those circumstances.
- spenczar5 5y ago
  I could imagine some slippier cases. A lot of successful startup executives have a bunch of money and invest it in startups. They (of course) pick ones that they think will do a good job in their space. It isn't that crazy to imagine them recommending using a startup they've invested in, and it's also possible to imagine them making a convincing case to a board that the startup is the best option available. They still can profit massively from that, though, so it's still kind of messy territory.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I don't really disagree. Just because there's a potential conflict of interest doesn't mean there's corruption. And the further you get from large companies with internal audit teams and established procurement practices the fewer controls there are the murkier things can get. Per the peer comment, if you don't disclose the conflict, and let the BoD decide what to do in light of that conflict, then you're into the realm of looking like you're hiding something.
    - jsmith99 5y ago
      It's the principal/agent problem. If the director is an agent of the shareholders then conflict of interest IS corruption unless you have some sort of safeguard to stop it affecting your behaviour.
  - jsmith99 5y ago
    That's not a grey area at all. If you are a director and you are pushing your board to drive business to a company you have a significant stake in, you MUST disclose that. A grey area would be more like whether you should offer to leave the meeting while they discuss the proposal.
    - spenczar5 5y ago
      Yep, I agree. I was responding to the comment from ghaff that they "can't imagine any BoD would be cool" with a deal getting signed in a clear conflict of interest. I can imagine a board going along with it. Of course, the conflict definitely needs to be disclosed!
      - ghaff 5y ago
        Oh I agree. I was really talking about the kickback case as in here. There are other types of conflicts which happen and may be fine so long as the person in question isn't making the decision on their own and, as you say, has disclosed it.
- stadium 5y ago
  What are the disclosure laws if an exec has a stake in a public or private company, and there is an actual or potential vendor relationship with that company? Are there even laws for this, or is it more about company policies set by the BoD?
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    Usually disclose and recuse. You’re conflicted, so you shouldn’t make the decision or be involved in making the decision, but if it’s the best vendor for the company the company isn’t prohibited from using their services. Most large companies will have a policy for declaring and managing that type of conflict. In addition to generic criminal laws against fraud and bribery there’s also honest services fraud (which I’ve mentioned elsewhere in this thread) which boils down to depriving someone to whom you owe a duty of the right to your honest services.

tptacek 5y ago

The vendors effectively helped defraud Netflix. If Kail initiated the scheme, demanding kickbacks for deals to move forward (as seems likely to be the case given the number of vendors involved) they're unlikely to face consequences, but they're morally culpable regardless. It is not unlawful to offer incentives to the company itself in order for them to make a deal. In fact, that's effectively how most deals close (the incentive is usually simply monetary and takes the form of a discount). The problem here is that Kail abused his position as an agent of Netflix to profit at their expense.

tcbawo 5y ago
What seems especially common are indirect incentives such as dinners, drinks, vacations, and other entertainment perks.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Dinner and drinks are ok as long as they are not excessive and in line with the expected return for the company, say two people discussing business over lunch or dinner, with a maximum of $x / head. Fairly typical companies will have very explicit rules about what is and is not permitted to the point of spelling out exactly how much you are allowed to spend on a business relationship and the reverse: what to do when/if you are offered an invitation to join for dinner and who is to bear the expense. Vacations are typically forbidden and would immediately be seen as a bribe. This has led to all kinds of things that are practically vacations but officially are business (such as: conferences in sunny resorts, conferences that take three weeks and so on). Other 'entertainment' can come in many different forms and if not disclosed can get both parties in hot water. On the whole, pay your own way, do not accept anything that might be construed as a bribe afterwards (so no discount on that shiny item from the company you are deciding to do business with, or not), no gifts over a very low dollar value and in case of doubt clear with legal/linemanager/accountant, transparency is key here, just a failure to disclose can turn an otherwise innocent thing into a potential bribe. It's really not all that hard to keep your nose clean.
- notyourday 5y ago
  Walmart procurement has very strict rules where if they accept any incentives i.e. dinner, drinks, vacation, entertainment, etc are grounds for immediate termination.