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Too me this is another example showing how much behind "software engineering" is behind most otherl engineering disciplines. Processes in other disciplines are

Too me this is another example showing how much behind "software engineering" is behind most otherl engineering disciplines. Processes in other disciplines are build very much into the practice that these things don't happen because people die if a plane crashes or a bridge collapses. Also that somehow software gets away with absolving itself of any liability (i.e. the usual "this software is provided as is...") is quite remarkable.

treesknees 5y ago
You're just not looking in the right places, and your comment is a bit disingenuous. You're cherry-picking examples that don't represent an entire industry. NASA for example has an _extremely_ tight tolerance on software specifications, testing, and proofs [1]. Medical devices and other core infrastructure also has very robust development cycles to ensure bugs don't bring down the power grid or overcharge someones heart in a pacemaker. Meanwhile you can look at the auto industry and find example after example of shoddy engineering or manufacturing processes putting hundreds of thousands of drivers and families at risk. [2] [3] [4] 1 - https://www.nasa.gov/isd-robust-software-engineering https://www.nasa.gov/isd-robust-software-engineering 2 - https://news.yahoo.com/chevy-bolts-stressful-recall-161700057.html https://news.yahoo.com/chevy-bolts-stressful-recall-16170005... 3 - https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/takata-airbag-recall-everything-you-need-to-know-a1060713669/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/takata-a... 4 - https://www.cars.com/articles/explaining-the-toyota-floormat-recall-1420663233094/ https://www.cars.com/articles/explaining-the-toyota-floormat...
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  It seems pretty clear that software is behind the auto industry in build quality/reliability too.
travisgriggs 5y ago
It’s like trying to breathe underwater. Just because a person has the capability and know how to breathe, they can’t breathe if not given the proper environment to do so. Yelling at them “why didn’t you take a breathe?!?!” As you watched them drown underwater is just ridiculous and naive. But every time proper engineering doesn’t happen, we see a subset of cries like this, like it’s some moral failing in the engineer. There are surely some chronically stupid engineers out there, but 99% of the time it’s a culture that has subverted the doers below the discussers and the deciders that leads to this shitshow of “how did this happen??”
RHSeeger 5y ago
People die all the time because things for buildings are changed "in production". It's common for the builder (or supplier... the people in charge of taking the engineers plans and actually building the thing) to swap out parts at their own discretion. And there's tons of stories of lots of people dying because of it. There's also stories of architects designing buildings using "new and interesting techniques" with little to no testing. There's a story of one building that was lighting things across the street on fire because it was basically a big parabolic mirror. And.. well.. the Boeing 737 Max. So sure, engineers and related jobs are _better_ about it, but they're certainly not perfect. The still do stupid things. It's just less likely because the fields have been around for a long time and there's been time to learn the right ways to do things... and to learn the things that get people killed. As the expression goes, regulations are written in blood... because new regulations come about when people die because of a gap.

treesknees 5y ago

You're just not looking in the right places, and your comment is a bit disingenuous. You're cherry-picking examples that don't represent an entire industry. NASA for example has an _extremely_ tight tolerance on software specifications, testing, and proofs [1]. Medical devices and other core infrastructure also has very robust development cycles to ensure bugs don't bring down the power grid or overcharge someones heart in a pacemaker. Meanwhile you can look at the auto industry and find example after example of shoddy engineering or manufacturing processes putting hundreds of thousands of drivers and families at risk. [2] [3] [4] 1 - https://www.nasa.gov/isd-robust-software-engineering https://www.nasa.gov/isd-robust-software-engineering 2 - https://news.yahoo.com/chevy-bolts-stressful-recall-161700057.html https://news.yahoo.com/chevy-bolts-stressful-recall-16170005... 3 - https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/takata-airbag-recall-everything-you-need-to-know-a1060713669/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/takata-a... 4 - https://www.cars.com/articles/explaining-the-toyota-floormat-recall-1420663233094/ https://www.cars.com/articles/explaining-the-toyota-floormat...

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
It seems pretty clear that software is behind the auto industry in build quality/reliability too.

travisgriggs 5y ago

It’s like trying to breathe underwater. Just because a person has the capability and know how to breathe, they can’t breathe if not given the proper environment to do so. Yelling at them “why didn’t you take a breathe?!?!” As you watched them drown underwater is just ridiculous and naive. But every time proper engineering doesn’t happen, we see a subset of cries like this, like it’s some moral failing in the engineer. There are surely some chronically stupid engineers out there, but 99% of the time it’s a culture that has subverted the doers below the discussers and the deciders that leads to this shitshow of “how did this happen??”

RHSeeger 5y ago

People die all the time because things for buildings are changed "in production". It's common for the builder (or supplier... the people in charge of taking the engineers plans and actually building the thing) to swap out parts at their own discretion. And there's tons of stories of lots of people dying because of it. There's also stories of architects designing buildings using "new and interesting techniques" with little to no testing. There's a story of one building that was lighting things across the street on fire because it was basically a big parabolic mirror. And.. well.. the Boeing 737 Max. So sure, engineers and related jobs are _better_ about it, but they're certainly not perfect. The still do stupid things. It's just less likely because the fields have been around for a long time and there's been time to learn the right ways to do things... and to learn the things that get people killed. As the expression goes, regulations are written in blood... because new regulations come about when people die because of a gap.