5 ms·

What does Google think minimum wage is?

66 points by edent 5y ago

golergka 5y ago
> Minimum wage is always expressed per hour - not per month. That's a weirdly american thing to say. In many countries, people typically measure their wages per month and have no idea how much do they earn per hour or per year.
- kfprt 5y ago
  Arguably per hour is a better metric because it accounts for part time workers.
- maltalex 5y ago
  Actually, in the UK the minimum wage seems to be defined on a per-hour basis too: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
- SeanLuke 5y ago
  Terence Eden is British.
  - edent 5y ago
    [CITATION NEEDED] But, yes, I am. And in the UK the minimum wage is set at a per-hour basis.
    - tokai 5y ago
      Could you stop using HN to promote your blog?
      - robjan 5y ago
        If you don't like it, just don't upvote or engage with the thread. That's how moderation works on HN.
        vntok 5y ago
        Asking him politely is more efficient than merely downvoting. That way, he can be certain that some people (at least two people, counting me) are displeased with his spamming the community.
        jessaustin 5y ago
        The comment isn't moderation. It's a signal to other readers that 80% of the links submitted by this user [0] are for this user's own blog. Actually 80% is just for the first page of links. The second page is 90%! HN benefits from variety. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=edent https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=edent
- Planktonne 5y ago
  It's not a weirdly American thing; as the article says, the standard is to express minimum wage as an hourly figure [1]. People don't necessarily refer to their own wage as an hourly figure, but that's an entirely separate thing to how minimum wage is normally discussed. I'd suggest, as well, that people who don't think of their wage in hourly terms are less likely to be on or close to minimum wage. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage
  - f311a 5y ago
    I don't think there is a standard. Even your link mentions that Russian and China use the monthly amount.
    - Planktonne 5y ago
      I think the fact that those two countries are called out as an example suggests that monthly is not the norm; difference exists, but common discussion/comparisons tend to use hourly (as shown in the top table), and the majority (?) of countries do as well. At the very, very least, it's not a uniquely American thing.
- a_humean 5y ago
  In the UK its per hour and is different for different age cohorts (25+ > 21-24 > 18-20 > 16-17 > 0-16), and the author from the UK. Maybe its a bit of a parochial American thing to assume that everyone is an American being overly parochial.
- dgb23 5y ago
  In CH it depends on the type of work. If you're contracting/freelancing etc. You know or talk about your per hour or maybe per month salary. But with long-term employment you typically know or talk about the per year and maybe per month salary. Then there are a _lot_ of trades that have a GAV (negotiated by unions), where you'll have a wage table per month and clauses such as being entitled to a 13th salary per year among other things. The tables typically take education (including advanced training) levels, roles and experience into account.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > In many countries, people typically measure their wages per month In the UK, when you are paid monthly, that's referred to as "salary". Wages are paid weekly. Furthermore the "minimum wage" is set by the government, who express it as pounds-per-week. If you're on the minimum wage, and you are paid monthly, the minimum wage is still expressed in terms of weekly pay. [Edit] I'm wrong - the government website apparently expresses it in hourly terms (thanks, @a_humean). But it's never expressed as monthly pay, nor in Euros.
- zz865 5y ago
  Agreed most my Eastern European family talk about after tax amount/month.
  - ldiracdelta 5y ago
    That's the real number. A useful number for actually thinking about how to allocate your resources.
- phkahler 5y ago
  In fact, if you ask google "minimum wage in the US" it give the answer in dollars per hour. Perhaps it's user error when the author asks google a question that isn't actually relevant to them.
  - Planktonne 5y ago
    It's not 'user error' for a user to ask an unanticipated question; that's poor design.
    - phkahler 5y ago
      I didn't say "unanticipated" I said not relevant to them. The "problem" here is that Google returned the result in the form most relevant given the question, not the user. If you ask what the price of break is in the UK you shouldn't expect the answer to be in US dollars either. Maybe someone hadn't really thought about currency when they asked but that doesn't make the answer wrong at all.
      - Planktonne 5y ago
        Google absolutely hasn't returned the answer in the most relevant form. Minimum wage in the UK is defined as an hourly figure, and the UK doesn't use the Euro. That's the key point of the article.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
maltalex 5y ago
So Google uses a data source that uses euros per month as a metric (probably [0]), so what? There's clearly room for improvement here, but come on - taking taxes into account? Showing only the current wage? Those are oddly specific requirements. Who should the taxes be calculated for? A single man? A family of four? A single parent? Showing the historic wage as it compares to other countries is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. What Google does here is very far from being dangerously misleading. [0]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Minimum_wages,_July_2011_and_July_2021_(EUR_per_month_and_%25).png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
- city41 5y ago
  The seizure example is a nice example of where this feature is misleading. But overall, I have come to not trust it at all. I find it is flat out wrong more often than not. A feature like that is pretty much useless.
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  Since the minimum wage in the UK is a thing that is set by law, defined as an amount in Sterling per hour, before tax (although at that pay level tax would be irrelevant anyway), that's the only valid response.
- SifJar 5y ago
  In fairness, it appears they're only mentioning taxes in the context of comparing to other countries' minimum wage - if Google wasn't displaying the other countries minimum wages, there'd be no reason to factor in taxes for a fair comparison.
- edent 5y ago
  > So Google uses a data source that uses euros per month as a metric (probably [0]), so what? What is the intent of a user making a search for "minimum wage uk"? If they searched for "historic minimum wage", or "compare minimum wage" - sure, that graph is appropriate. What I'm saying is that for someone searching for the UK's rate, there is only one correct answer. This is the rate mandated by the Government for your age.
aabajian 5y ago
If you're interested in a querying for quantitative data, try Wolfram|Alpha: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=minimum+wage+in+the+UK https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=minimum+wage+in+the+UK
- edent 5y ago
  That's wrong as well. It says £8.72 for people aged over 25. The correct rate is £8.91. Source: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
sksksk 5y ago
When my partner was pregnant, I found some of the snippets downright dangerous. One time in particular, my partner was worried about abdominal seperation (something quite common during pregnancy), she was searching about how long it takes to heal. The snippet answer said that it usually doesn't heal without surgery. She was really upset by this, until I pointed out that Google had sourced that answer from a private plastic surgery clinic. Our country's public health website said it usually heals within 8 weeks. I don't think anyone was being malicious here, but using machine learning to source answers from website, and present them as fact, is surely a disaster waiting to happen? Especially when it comes to medical advice. There's also times when the information is contextual, searching "can you drink during pregnancy" shows me the advice from the CDC, but that guidance is different in my country. At the very least, Google turn off snippets for medical questions, or should only show answers extracted from government health bodies in the country the user is in.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pickle-wizard 5y ago
  On a recent Technology Connection video he said something interesting. 1. You should not take everything you read on the Internet at face value. 2. Google takes what it finds at face value.
csbartus 5y ago
Haha the comments are so funny :) Everybody is right in this cacophony. Pandora’s box is open, and I bet a pint we’ll never find the true answer …
nicbou 5y ago
I often link to my own website as a source for my answers in other communities. Sometimes I use Google to find the pages. The Google snippets from my website are frequently wrong (as an answer to the question), or lack the context required to qualify as a correct answer. Bad answers are common in my field, but they are rarely signed with my name. It feels like being quoted by a really dumb journalist.
dt123 5y ago
A few months ago I searched for the tax filing deadline (I am in the UK). It gave the deadline for the US, which was later in the same month. This is pretty risky.

66 points by edent 5y ago

> Minimum wage is always expressed per hour - not per month. That's a weirdly american thing to say. In many countries, people typically measure their wages per month and have no idea how much do they earn per hour or per year.

kfprt 5y ago
Arguably per hour is a better metric because it accounts for part time workers.
maltalex 5y ago
Actually, in the UK the minimum wage seems to be defined on a per-hour basis too: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
SeanLuke 5y ago
Terence Eden is British.
- edent 5y ago
  [CITATION NEEDED] But, yes, I am. And in the UK the minimum wage is set at a per-hour basis.
  - tokai 5y ago
    Could you stop using HN to promote your blog?
    - robjan 5y ago
      If you don't like it, just don't upvote or engage with the thread. That's how moderation works on HN.
      - vntok 5y ago
        Asking him politely is more efficient than merely downvoting. That way, he can be certain that some people (at least two people, counting me) are displeased with his spamming the community.
      - jessaustin 5y ago
        The comment isn't moderation. It's a signal to other readers that 80% of the links submitted by this user [0] are for this user's own blog. Actually 80% is just for the first page of links. The second page is 90%! HN benefits from variety. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=edent https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=edent
Planktonne 5y ago
It's not a weirdly American thing; as the article says, the standard is to express minimum wage as an hourly figure [1]. People don't necessarily refer to their own wage as an hourly figure, but that's an entirely separate thing to how minimum wage is normally discussed. I'd suggest, as well, that people who don't think of their wage in hourly terms are less likely to be on or close to minimum wage. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage
- f311a 5y ago
  I don't think there is a standard. Even your link mentions that Russian and China use the monthly amount.
  - Planktonne 5y ago
    I think the fact that those two countries are called out as an example suggests that monthly is not the norm; difference exists, but common discussion/comparisons tend to use hourly (as shown in the top table), and the majority (?) of countries do as well. At the very, very least, it's not a uniquely American thing.
a_humean 5y ago
In the UK its per hour and is different for different age cohorts (25+ > 21-24 > 18-20 > 16-17 > 0-16), and the author from the UK. Maybe its a bit of a parochial American thing to assume that everyone is an American being overly parochial.
dgb23 5y ago
In CH it depends on the type of work. If you're contracting/freelancing etc. You know or talk about your per hour or maybe per month salary. But with long-term employment you typically know or talk about the per year and maybe per month salary. Then there are a _lot_ of trades that have a GAV (negotiated by unions), where you'll have a wage table per month and clauses such as being entitled to a 13th salary per year among other things. The tables typically take education (including advanced training) levels, roles and experience into account.
denton-scratch 5y ago
> In many countries, people typically measure their wages per month In the UK, when you are paid monthly, that's referred to as "salary". Wages are paid weekly. Furthermore the "minimum wage" is set by the government, who express it as pounds-per-week. If you're on the minimum wage, and you are paid monthly, the minimum wage is still expressed in terms of weekly pay. [Edit] I'm wrong - the government website apparently expresses it in hourly terms (thanks, @a_humean). But it's never expressed as monthly pay, nor in Euros.
zz865 5y ago
Agreed most my Eastern European family talk about after tax amount/month.
- ldiracdelta 5y ago
  That's the real number. A useful number for actually thinking about how to allocate your resources.
phkahler 5y ago
In fact, if you ask google "minimum wage in the US" it give the answer in dollars per hour. Perhaps it's user error when the author asks google a question that isn't actually relevant to them.
- Planktonne 5y ago
  It's not 'user error' for a user to ask an unanticipated question; that's poor design.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    I didn't say "unanticipated" I said not relevant to them. The "problem" here is that Google returned the result in the form most relevant given the question, not the user. If you ask what the price of break is in the UK you shouldn't expect the answer to be in US dollars either. Maybe someone hadn't really thought about currency when they asked but that doesn't make the answer wrong at all.
    - Planktonne 5y ago
      Google absolutely hasn't returned the answer in the most relevant form. Minimum wage in the UK is defined as an hourly figure, and the UK doesn't use the Euro. That's the key point of the article.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

maltalex 5y ago

So Google uses a data source that uses euros per month as a metric (probably [0]), so what? There's clearly room for improvement here, but come on - taking taxes into account? Showing only the current wage? Those are oddly specific requirements. Who should the taxes be calculated for? A single man? A family of four? A single parent? Showing the historic wage as it compares to other countries is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. What Google does here is very far from being dangerously misleading. [0]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Minimum_wages,_July_2011_and_July_2021_(EUR_per_month_and_%25).png https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

city41 5y ago
The seizure example is a nice example of where this feature is misleading. But overall, I have come to not trust it at all. I find it is flat out wrong more often than not. A feature like that is pretty much useless.
mnw21cam 5y ago
Since the minimum wage in the UK is a thing that is set by law, defined as an amount in Sterling per hour, before tax (although at that pay level tax would be irrelevant anyway), that's the only valid response.
SifJar 5y ago
In fairness, it appears they're only mentioning taxes in the context of comparing to other countries' minimum wage - if Google wasn't displaying the other countries minimum wages, there'd be no reason to factor in taxes for a fair comparison.
edent 5y ago
> So Google uses a data source that uses euros per month as a metric (probably [0]), so what? What is the intent of a user making a search for "minimum wage uk"? If they searched for "historic minimum wage", or "compare minimum wage" - sure, that graph is appropriate. What I'm saying is that for someone searching for the UK's rate, there is only one correct answer. This is the rate mandated by the Government for your age.

aabajian 5y ago

If you're interested in a querying for quantitative data, try Wolfram|Alpha: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=minimum+wage+in+the+UK https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=minimum+wage+in+the+UK

edent 5y ago
That's wrong as well. It says £8.72 for people aged over 25. The correct rate is £8.91. Source: https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

sksksk 5y ago

When my partner was pregnant, I found some of the snippets downright dangerous. One time in particular, my partner was worried about abdominal seperation (something quite common during pregnancy), she was searching about how long it takes to heal. The snippet answer said that it usually doesn't heal without surgery. She was really upset by this, until I pointed out that Google had sourced that answer from a private plastic surgery clinic. Our country's public health website said it usually heals within 8 weeks. I don't think anyone was being malicious here, but using machine learning to source answers from website, and present them as fact, is surely a disaster waiting to happen? Especially when it comes to medical advice. There's also times when the information is contextual, searching "can you drink during pregnancy" shows me the advice from the CDC, but that guidance is different in my country. At the very least, Google turn off snippets for medical questions, or should only show answers extracted from government health bodies in the country the user is in.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pickle-wizard 5y ago
On a recent Technology Connection video he said something interesting. 1. You should not take everything you read on the Internet at face value. 2. Google takes what it finds at face value.

csbartus 5y ago

Haha the comments are so funny :) Everybody is right in this cacophony. Pandora’s box is open, and I bet a pint we’ll never find the true answer …

nicbou 5y ago

I often link to my own website as a source for my answers in other communities. Sometimes I use Google to find the pages. The Google snippets from my website are frequently wrong (as an answer to the question), or lack the context required to qualify as a correct answer. Bad answers are common in my field, but they are rarely signed with my name. It feels like being quoted by a really dumb journalist.

dt123 5y ago

A few months ago I searched for the tax filing deadline (I am in the UK). It gave the deadline for the US, which was later in the same month. This is pretty risky.