4 ms·

> In 2014, when my son, Charles, then a 14-year-old, wanted to attend a party unsupervised, my wife wanted to know whether there would be parents present. “You’

> In 2014, when my son, Charles, then a 14-year-old, wanted to attend a party unsupervised, my wife wanted to know whether there would be parents present. “You’re not going to take drugs or drink alcohol, right?” she asked. “You know, there’s going to be peer pressure.” > I couldn’t help myself. I jumped in immediately. “Charles, for example, you’re at this party and everyone is sucking d—k. What are you going to do? You have to resist the temptation.” > Charles laughed. His mom shook her head. And I found a way to not be bored. This strikes a cord with me. As a kid/teenager I learned some lessons a lot better because they came in the form of offensive humor. I still remember some of them word for word 20+ years later. I worry about this in the context of current day puritanism a lot more that I care about movies, TV, social media, etc. I think we're raising generations of stuck up people who will fall even harder in puritan extreme.

mdp2021 5y ago
Also, there is a number of people (some documented) that cannot understand jokes, and not even rhetoric (irony, references, acting etc.): is it possible they were not exposed in their formative years? It is, symmetrically, quite bewildering to see those people unable to manage the non-literal. This is a lack in intellectual formation, and it sticks to some - similarly to the lasting effects of not having been "exposed to mathematics" (a number of articles emerged in the recent times). Edit: in fact, there is much more to that, now that I think about it: in the past few years, I have met a large number of people who, somehow, basically cannot read: they have the text in front of them, but cannot interpret it, if it is not literal. It surely must be lack of exposure to intellectual challenge, even to phenomena that some would have called "normal daily experience". And they have degrees. How did those "cannot make any sense of it" people emerge? Lack of exposure to differentiated stimula is certainly part of it.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  I have interacted with some of these. "Not understanding metaphor is a real handicap." "Are you calling me disabled?!"
  - mewpmewp2 5y ago
    I'd argue you are calling them disabled as well, to some extent. Maybe I fail to understand the metaphor here as well and am disabled too. They are disabled to understand metaphors, no?
    - newby 5y ago
      >> They are disabled to understand metaphors, no? No. I think the problem here is that some metaphors are used so often that people forget it is a metaphor and take it literally. You seem to inject the meaning (physical?) "disability" into the word "handicap"... are you aware, for example, of the practice of handicapping race horses, i.e. inserting weights into their saddles?
      - mewpmewp2 5y ago
        A bit late to the party and I am aware of what handicap generally means, but in this context I meant this term in combination with the fact that this person supposedly can't understand metaphors is disabled for the particular activity of understanding metaphors. If your brain can't understand metaphors, you could say this common ability for you is disabled. Also since most people do understand metaphors it can be interpreted that the poster is calling them lower in intelligence than most people which could fall into the zone of intellectually disabled.
    - stareatgoats 5y ago
      You're downvoted but you might at least savor the irony in that the detractors seemingly didn't understand what you were implying.
    - michaelt 5y ago
      Golfers have handicaps, but it doesn't mean they're disabled. Even if a lot of them do need electric mobility aids....
    - johnjonessmith 5y ago
      I'd argue you are proving the point of the P and GP. Being handicapped (at something) does not make one disabled. Words have more than one meaning they also have context. The fact I cannot speak French, for example, is a handicap to me when I am in France but not when I am in England. Assuming that the listener/reader has some level of comprehension (and things are not literally lost in translation) my personal experience of situations like this is often more of a problem of the listener/reader's insecurities.
- RNCTX 5y ago
  > I have met a large number of people who, somehow, basically cannot read: they have the text in front of them, but cannot interpret it, if it is not literal. It surely must be lack of exposure to intellectual challenge, even to phenomena that some would have called "normal daily experience". And they have degrees. How did those "cannot make any sense of it" people emerge? Reading little blurbs on social media and having to make the most toddler'ish value judgments on the spot about them? Everything is assessed by its literal value, and whether it's good vs bad, for vs against, etc. Like this reply of mine, for example...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
soco 5y ago
I think it's also some circular reinforcing, like Hollywood trying their hardest to ride every wave (perceived as) trend and milk it dry, so they'll get to lead that wave - in the minds of some viewers at least. On the other hand, do we see that over-puritanism also in the daily lives? Or it's just on the screen and we mistake that for real life? Bear in mind that there's also a world outside the US too, and both humor and sensitivities vary a lot.
- trabant00 5y ago
  I'm from Eastern Europe and the motivation for my post is the way I see friends and coworkers raise their kids. US culture for better and for worse has reach and influence all over the world.
  - soco 5y ago
    I'm from Eastern Europe too and live since half a life in Switzerland. I can tell that the jokes I knew from back there were deemed offensive for local tastes and this is definitely not a consequence of today's changes - they found them offensive also back then (like 25 years ago). Not only jokes but also reactions to daily situations. So maybe what you noticed is not wokeism but just globalization of social norms (I'm sure there's a fancy word for this).
    - trabant00 5y ago
      > maybe what you noticed is not wokeism but just globalization of social norms Could it not be the case that these social norms are taken a bit to the extreme? I do not call it wokeism myself since that encourages easy labeling and dismissing of ideas. But I do think it has been taken too far. Profane language and offensive jokes have always been offensive, yes. That is why I called them offensive... They have to be used sparingly and with care. But not being able to use them anywhere anytime is too much. That is my opinion for what it is worth.
  - vasac 5y ago
    Yeah, I have a similar (EE) experience. A few years ago during some discussion about Africa a guy (who apparently turned on his wokeness to 11) called people there African Americans - people who lived all their lives in Africa and have nothing to do with America.
dxbydt 5y ago
> As a kid/teenager I learned some lessons a lot better because they came in the form of offensive humor. I still remember some of them word for word 20+ years later. I worry about this in the context of current day puritanism a lot more that I care about movies, TV, social media, etc. I think we're raising generations of stuck up people who will fall even harder in puritan extreme Amen, brother! As a parent of a middle schooler, I have this exact worry. At his age, I was much more offensive and crude, but I like to think I turned out ok. Meanwhile he’s growing up in an era where the language has been ultra gentrified.I went to school in the 90s, when professors cursed freely & wrote “shaft the customer!” on the blackboard to express their solidarity with Alan Perlis, with no consequence of repercussion. No way you can get away with that today in a CS class. These days there are actual rooms called Salesforce Lab & Infosys Building in a university nearby, because of the funders. When I worked at Sun, Scott McNealy sent an email that said “we are at war” and pointed out it took 13 bytes to send those utf8 chars as a txt file on unix but 1.5MB to do the same as a doc file on Windows. It got a lot of offensive “fucking micro$oft” replies & forwards complete with the dollar sign throughout the company wide network - imagine if such a thing is possible today. I took my kid to the hospital for the flu shot & routine annual. So the doc walks up to him with a very serious expression and tells him in a somber voice - “Now I am going to take a look at your private parts, and that’s ok only because your dad is here, otherwise we both know nobody is supposed to look at your private parts. ok ? “ I was drinking a cup of starbucks & spilt coffee all over the fucking floor doubling in laughter. He was not amused. Afterwards, he said, in my time we’d just say drop your pants & show me your dick motherfucker. But those days are gone :(
- majewsky 5y ago
  One of these is not like the other. I agree with all your sentiments except for the last one. Having experienced close friends dealing with child sexual abuse, I'm very thankful that children are educated about such boundaries very early on.

mdp2021 5y ago

Also, there is a number of people (some documented) that cannot understand jokes, and not even rhetoric (irony, references, acting etc.): is it possible they were not exposed in their formative years? It is, symmetrically, quite bewildering to see those people unable to manage the non-literal. This is a lack in intellectual formation, and it sticks to some - similarly to the lasting effects of not having been "exposed to mathematics" (a number of articles emerged in the recent times). Edit: in fact, there is much more to that, now that I think about it: in the past few years, I have met a large number of people who, somehow, basically cannot read: they have the text in front of them, but cannot interpret it, if it is not literal. It surely must be lack of exposure to intellectual challenge, even to phenomena that some would have called "normal daily experience". And they have degrees. How did those "cannot make any sense of it" people emerge? Lack of exposure to differentiated stimula is certainly part of it.

rsj_hn 5y ago
I have interacted with some of these. "Not understanding metaphor is a real handicap." "Are you calling me disabled?!"
- mewpmewp2 5y ago
  I'd argue you are calling them disabled as well, to some extent. Maybe I fail to understand the metaphor here as well and am disabled too. They are disabled to understand metaphors, no?
  - newby 5y ago
    >> They are disabled to understand metaphors, no? No. I think the problem here is that some metaphors are used so often that people forget it is a metaphor and take it literally. You seem to inject the meaning (physical?) "disability" into the word "handicap"... are you aware, for example, of the practice of handicapping race horses, i.e. inserting weights into their saddles?
    - mewpmewp2 5y ago
      A bit late to the party and I am aware of what handicap generally means, but in this context I meant this term in combination with the fact that this person supposedly can't understand metaphors is disabled for the particular activity of understanding metaphors. If your brain can't understand metaphors, you could say this common ability for you is disabled. Also since most people do understand metaphors it can be interpreted that the poster is calling them lower in intelligence than most people which could fall into the zone of intellectually disabled.
  - stareatgoats 5y ago
    You're downvoted but you might at least savor the irony in that the detractors seemingly didn't understand what you were implying.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    Golfers have handicaps, but it doesn't mean they're disabled. Even if a lot of them do need electric mobility aids....
  - johnjonessmith 5y ago
    I'd argue you are proving the point of the P and GP. Being handicapped (at something) does not make one disabled. Words have more than one meaning they also have context. The fact I cannot speak French, for example, is a handicap to me when I am in France but not when I am in England. Assuming that the listener/reader has some level of comprehension (and things are not literally lost in translation) my personal experience of situations like this is often more of a problem of the listener/reader's insecurities.
RNCTX 5y ago
> I have met a large number of people who, somehow, basically cannot read: they have the text in front of them, but cannot interpret it, if it is not literal. It surely must be lack of exposure to intellectual challenge, even to phenomena that some would have called "normal daily experience". And they have degrees. How did those "cannot make any sense of it" people emerge? Reading little blurbs on social media and having to make the most toddler'ish value judgments on the spot about them? Everything is assessed by its literal value, and whether it's good vs bad, for vs against, etc. Like this reply of mine, for example...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

soco 5y ago

I think it's also some circular reinforcing, like Hollywood trying their hardest to ride every wave (perceived as) trend and milk it dry, so they'll get to lead that wave - in the minds of some viewers at least. On the other hand, do we see that over-puritanism also in the daily lives? Or it's just on the screen and we mistake that for real life? Bear in mind that there's also a world outside the US too, and both humor and sensitivities vary a lot.

trabant00 5y ago
I'm from Eastern Europe and the motivation for my post is the way I see friends and coworkers raise their kids. US culture for better and for worse has reach and influence all over the world.
- soco 5y ago
  I'm from Eastern Europe too and live since half a life in Switzerland. I can tell that the jokes I knew from back there were deemed offensive for local tastes and this is definitely not a consequence of today's changes - they found them offensive also back then (like 25 years ago). Not only jokes but also reactions to daily situations. So maybe what you noticed is not wokeism but just globalization of social norms (I'm sure there's a fancy word for this).
  - trabant00 5y ago
    > maybe what you noticed is not wokeism but just globalization of social norms Could it not be the case that these social norms are taken a bit to the extreme? I do not call it wokeism myself since that encourages easy labeling and dismissing of ideas. But I do think it has been taken too far. Profane language and offensive jokes have always been offensive, yes. That is why I called them offensive... They have to be used sparingly and with care. But not being able to use them anywhere anytime is too much. That is my opinion for what it is worth.
- vasac 5y ago
  Yeah, I have a similar (EE) experience. A few years ago during some discussion about Africa a guy (who apparently turned on his wokeness to 11) called people there African Americans - people who lived all their lives in Africa and have nothing to do with America.

dxbydt 5y ago

> As a kid/teenager I learned some lessons a lot better because they came in the form of offensive humor. I still remember some of them word for word 20+ years later. I worry about this in the context of current day puritanism a lot more that I care about movies, TV, social media, etc. I think we're raising generations of stuck up people who will fall even harder in puritan extreme Amen, brother! As a parent of a middle schooler, I have this exact worry. At his age, I was much more offensive and crude, but I like to think I turned out ok. Meanwhile he’s growing up in an era where the language has been ultra gentrified.I went to school in the 90s, when professors cursed freely & wrote “shaft the customer!” on the blackboard to express their solidarity with Alan Perlis, with no consequence of repercussion. No way you can get away with that today in a CS class. These days there are actual rooms called Salesforce Lab & Infosys Building in a university nearby, because of the funders. When I worked at Sun, Scott McNealy sent an email that said “we are at war” and pointed out it took 13 bytes to send those utf8 chars as a txt file on unix but 1.5MB to do the same as a doc file on Windows. It got a lot of offensive “fucking micro$oft” replies & forwards complete with the dollar sign throughout the company wide network - imagine if such a thing is possible today. I took my kid to the hospital for the flu shot & routine annual. So the doc walks up to him with a very serious expression and tells him in a somber voice - “Now I am going to take a look at your private parts, and that’s ok only because your dad is here, otherwise we both know nobody is supposed to look at your private parts. ok ? “ I was drinking a cup of starbucks & spilt coffee all over the fucking floor doubling in laughter. He was not amused. Afterwards, he said, in my time we’d just say drop your pants & show me your dick motherfucker. But those days are gone :(

majewsky 5y ago
One of these is not like the other. I agree with all your sentiments except for the last one. Having experienced close friends dealing with child sexual abuse, I'm very thankful that children are educated about such boundaries very early on.