5 ms·

Could we use M1 chips on non-apple boards? If yes, I wish Apple releases these for non mac os consumption. Eg. Running linux servers in the cloud.

priyanmuthu 5y ago
Wasn't there a rumor that AMD was creating ARM chips? It will be great if we have ARM versions of EPYC chips.
- chasil 5y ago
  AMD's equivalent of the Intel Management Engine (ME) is based on ARM, I think. Intel used to use "ARC" cores, but recently converted to and i486.
  - chasil 5y ago
    This is the ARM core that lives inside AMD Xen: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Processor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Proces...
- monocasa 5y ago
  They were, but have stopped talking about that for years. The project is probably canceled; I've heard Jim Keller talk about how that work was happening simultaneously with Zen 1.
- zik 5y ago
  I'd love to see someone do a serious desktop RISC-V processor.
culpable_pickle 5y ago
Why? There are plenty of server oriented ARM platforms available for use (See AWS Graviton). What benefit do you feel Apple’s platform gives over existing ones?
- dragontamer 5y ago
  The Apple cores are full custom, Apple-only designs. The AWS Graviton are Neoverse cores, which are pretty good, but clearly these Apple-only M1 cores are above-and-beyond. --------- That being said: these M1 cores (and Neoverse cores) are missing SMT / Hyperthreading, and a few other features I'd expect in a server product. Servers are fine with the bandwidth/latency tradeoff: more (better) bandwidth but at worse (highter) latencies.
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    My understanding is that you don't really need hyperthreading on a RISC CPU because decoding instructions is easier and doesn't have to be parallelised as with hyperthreading.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Okay, the whole RISC thing is stupid. But ignoring that aspect of the discussion... POWER9, one of those RISC CPUs, has 8-way SMT. Neoverse E1 also has SMT-2 (aka: 2-way hyperthreading). SMT / Hyperthreading has nothing to do with RISC / CISC or whatever. Its just a feature some people like or don't like. RISC CPUs (Neoverse E1 / POWER9) can perfectly do SMT if the designers wanted.
      - socialdemocrat 5y ago
        Don’t think that is entirely true. Lots of features which exist on both RISC and CISC CPUs have different natural fit. Using micro-ops e.g. on a CISC is more important than in RISC CPU even if both benefit. Likewise pipelining has a more natural fit on RISC than CISC, while micro-op cache is more important on CISC than RISC.
        dragontamer 5y ago
        I don't even know what RISC or CISC means anymore. They're bad, non-descriptive terms. 30 years ago, RISC or CISC meant something, but not anymore. Today's CPUs are pipelined, out-of-order, speculative, superscalar, (sometimes) SMT, SIMD, multi-core with MESI-based snooping for cohesive caches. These words actually have meaning (and in particular, describe a particular attribute of performance for modern cores). RISC or CISC? useful for internet flamewars I guess but I've literally never been able to use either term in a technical discussion. ------- I said what I said earlier: this M1 Pro / M1 Max, and the ARM Neoverse cores, are missing SMT, which seems to come standard on every other server-class CPU (POWER9, Intel Skylake-X, AMD EPYC). Neoverse N1 makes up for it with absurdly high core counts, so maybe its not a big deal. Apple M1 however has very small core counts, I doubt that Apple M1 would be good in a server setting... at least not with this configuration. They'd have to change things dramatically to compete at the higher end.
MaysonL 5y ago
Linux on M1 Macs is under development, running, last I heard. https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/07/linux-is-now-usable-as-a-basic-desktop-for-m1-macs/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/07/linux-is-now-usable-as-a-basi...
socialdemocrat 5y ago
Not a great fit. Something like Ampere altra is better as it gives you 80 cores and much more memory which better fits a server. A server benefits more from lots of weaker cores than a few strong cores. The M1 is an awesome desktop/laptop chip and possibly great for HPC, but not for servers. What might be more interesting is to see powerful gaming rigs built around the these chips. They could have build a kickass game console with these chips.
- simonh 5y ago
  Why they didn't lean into that aspect of the Apple TV still mystifies me. A Wii-mote style pointing device seems such a natural fit for it, and has proven gaming utility. Maybe patents were a problem?

priyanmuthu 5y ago

Wasn't there a rumor that AMD was creating ARM chips? It will be great if we have ARM versions of EPYC chips.

chasil 5y ago
AMD's equivalent of the Intel Management Engine (ME) is based on ARM, I think. Intel used to use "ARC" cores, but recently converted to and i486.
- chasil 5y ago
  This is the ARM core that lives inside AMD Xen: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Processor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Platform_Security_Proces...
monocasa 5y ago
They were, but have stopped talking about that for years. The project is probably canceled; I've heard Jim Keller talk about how that work was happening simultaneously with Zen 1.
zik 5y ago
I'd love to see someone do a serious desktop RISC-V processor.

culpable_pickle 5y ago

Why? There are plenty of server oriented ARM platforms available for use (See AWS Graviton). What benefit do you feel Apple’s platform gives over existing ones?

dragontamer 5y ago
The Apple cores are full custom, Apple-only designs. The AWS Graviton are Neoverse cores, which are pretty good, but clearly these Apple-only M1 cores are above-and-beyond. --------- That being said: these M1 cores (and Neoverse cores) are missing SMT / Hyperthreading, and a few other features I'd expect in a server product. Servers are fine with the bandwidth/latency tradeoff: more (better) bandwidth but at worse (highter) latencies.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  My understanding is that you don't really need hyperthreading on a RISC CPU because decoding instructions is easier and doesn't have to be parallelised as with hyperthreading.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Okay, the whole RISC thing is stupid. But ignoring that aspect of the discussion... POWER9, one of those RISC CPUs, has 8-way SMT. Neoverse E1 also has SMT-2 (aka: 2-way hyperthreading). SMT / Hyperthreading has nothing to do with RISC / CISC or whatever. Its just a feature some people like or don't like. RISC CPUs (Neoverse E1 / POWER9) can perfectly do SMT if the designers wanted.
    - socialdemocrat 5y ago
      Don’t think that is entirely true. Lots of features which exist on both RISC and CISC CPUs have different natural fit. Using micro-ops e.g. on a CISC is more important than in RISC CPU even if both benefit. Likewise pipelining has a more natural fit on RISC than CISC, while micro-op cache is more important on CISC than RISC.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        I don't even know what RISC or CISC means anymore. They're bad, non-descriptive terms. 30 years ago, RISC or CISC meant something, but not anymore. Today's CPUs are pipelined, out-of-order, speculative, superscalar, (sometimes) SMT, SIMD, multi-core with MESI-based snooping for cohesive caches. These words actually have meaning (and in particular, describe a particular attribute of performance for modern cores). RISC or CISC? useful for internet flamewars I guess but I've literally never been able to use either term in a technical discussion. ------- I said what I said earlier: this M1 Pro / M1 Max, and the ARM Neoverse cores, are missing SMT, which seems to come standard on every other server-class CPU (POWER9, Intel Skylake-X, AMD EPYC). Neoverse N1 makes up for it with absurdly high core counts, so maybe its not a big deal. Apple M1 however has very small core counts, I doubt that Apple M1 would be good in a server setting... at least not with this configuration. They'd have to change things dramatically to compete at the higher end.

MaysonL 5y ago

Linux on M1 Macs is under development, running, last I heard. https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/07/linux-is-now-usable-as-a-basic-desktop-for-m1-macs/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/07/linux-is-now-usable-as-a-basi...

socialdemocrat 5y ago

Not a great fit. Something like Ampere altra is better as it gives you 80 cores and much more memory which better fits a server. A server benefits more from lots of weaker cores than a few strong cores. The M1 is an awesome desktop/laptop chip and possibly great for HPC, but not for servers. What might be more interesting is to see powerful gaming rigs built around the these chips. They could have build a kickass game console with these chips.

simonh 5y ago
Why they didn't lean into that aspect of the Apple TV still mystifies me. A Wii-mote style pointing device seems such a natural fit for it, and has proven gaming utility. Maybe patents were a problem?