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I can't believe they're doubling down on the notch. The absolute best thing I can say about the iPhone notch is: I don't hate it enough to switch to Android. It

I can't believe they're doubling down on the notch. The absolute best thing I can say about the iPhone notch is: I don't hate it enough to switch to Android. It's by far the thing that bothers me the most about the design. It's ugly and lacking harmony with the UI.

aaroninsf 5y ago
I think I stopped "seeing" the notch a few days after upgrading to a model with one. It is not "there" for me cognitively. I imagine the same will be true with a notched laptop display, especially if it is "hiding" in the menu bar. But I am also surprised it's so big, I wonder if once you commit to notching there is a minimum width that becomes harder to mask perceptually...
s3r3nity 5y ago
It's a much better compromise than the pop-up selfie cameras that were a fad for a sec, but then died because of the extra compromises needed for water resistance, battery, extra motor, etc.
- hu3 5y ago
  There are under-display cameras these days. https://www.smartprix.com/bytes/under-display-camera-phones/ https://www.smartprix.com/bytes/under-display-camera-phones/
  - wmf 5y ago
    And reviews say they're terrible.
    - hu3 5y ago
      Of all tech giants, I expect Apple to improve the status quo the most. They are really good at it.
- adrusi 5y ago
  The pop-up cameras proved reliable and I used a OnePlus 7 Pro for two years, and found it adequately water resistant (good enough for me to give it a rinse in the sink every now and then). The internal space that the module occupied was the only real disadvantage of the pop-up camera, restricting the space available for the battery. Although I didn't have any complaints about the battery life of this phone.
katsura 5y ago
Not to mention that I, for example, have the top bar automatically hidden on my mac. Meaning, if I ever decided to buy one of these, I'd have to have it always shown, or I won't be able to click on some of my browser tabs? How does full screen mode work with this, I wonder?
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  I would imagine that it letterboxes the display for any apps that don't support the extended display.
  - emsy 5y ago
    Hopefully they will stop the mouse at the letterbox border, otherwise it would be terrible UX.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      I would imagine that this would be determined on an application level. Some apps may want a fullscreen version that has controls at the top.
dkonofalski 5y ago
I don't understand why you'd have an issue with it? The screen area cuts into the previous gen's bezel so, at worst, you'd just black out the top of the screen to have the exact same screen size as before and, at best, you can use the extra display for things like the menu bar. What's the issue?
- incrudible 5y ago
  If you don't "get it" just by looking at it, then good for you. There are no technical arguments to make me "unsee" it. It's ugly. It displeases my sense of aesthetics. It's the Hitler mustache of industrial design.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    >It displeases my sense of aesthetics. Or lack thereof.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      No, you! Seriously, look at the promo images that Apple created for this product: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/ The vast majority of these images hide the notch by not showing the menu bar at all, which is not how a Mac is generally used. The other images make it less noticable by putting it over a dark background. Does that convey confidence in the design, by the designers that were tasked to make it look good? The best thing you can say is: It's not that noticeable under certain conditions.
      - laurent92 5y ago
        The notch reminds me of Macron: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DO0bQ83UMAAUabp.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DO0bQ83UMAAUabp.jpg:large It’s not only a joke, it’s also that once you see it, you understand that the aesthetics of a notch aren’t based in sleek features, but in function-over-form.
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
kayodelycaon 5y ago
What's the other option? Under the screen has image quality issues. A thicker bezel means less screen space. Sticking up over the display is a worse compromise. Putting it on the bottom of the display really isn't ideal. For most people, the only thing it covers is the menu bar.
- incrudible 5y ago
  > Under the screen has image quality issues. I don't care. You need to process the hell out of a selfie image so you don't look like a goblin anyway. I'm sure the ML wizards at Apple can figure this out. > A thicker bezel means less screen space. The notch is a huge bezel with cutouts. > Sticking up over the display is a worse compromise. Putting it on the bottom of the display really isn't ideal. I agree. > For most people, the only thing it covers is the menu bar. It's not about what it covers, it's about harmony. A small hole is also superior, though most Android phones do not get the positioning right either. No, I don't care about Face ID, especially in the era of COVID. A finger print reader on the side or on the back is superior.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    > No, I don't care about Face ID, especially in the era of COVID. A finger print reader on the side or on the back is superior. Conveniently, these have a fingerprint reader still on the device.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > The notch is a huge bezel with cutouts. The notch is a tiny part of what remains of the previous bezel. That space isn't usable on an older M1 MBP, either.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      It's not about usable space. It's about the look. A smaller bezel doesn't lead to a better appearance by itself, but even then I'm sure they could've made the bezel smaller either way. However, the notch isn't made to be of minimal size. It's intrusive. It's telling me: I'm here, deal with it.
quirino 5y ago
It's very likely they'll include an option to have a black bar at the top of the screen, so that the notch is not visible. With the new Mini-LED screen it will be hopefully be dark enough to hide it well.
xoa 5y ago
However one feels about extra usable screen space in iDevices, doesn't seem like as big a deal on the Mac. macOS has and has always had the core menu bar taking up the entire top of the screen. And even with a significant number of user menubar add-ons, the middle is often blank space since the menus from the left and add-ons from the right don't meet. Eyeballing the resolutions (about 1.54:1) it looks like this is pure gain, they took previous dead space and turned it into screen then stuck the general fixed UI element in there, with the camera taking up what is commonly blank space. Seems pretty function-driving-form as it should be. Also, particularly given the new improved local dimming, for any content that wants a plain rectangle (video, games) seems like just blacking the menu bar area will work well. Macs aren't rotating devices either, so the notch is always going to be in the same semi-dead-space spot and easy to work around. That's quite different than iOS devices (even the iPad). And even with Apple's regrettable increasing of barriers to modifiability, on macOS there remains plenty of freedom to do UX adjustments and for developers to do whatever they want outside of Apple's rules. IIRC for example Apple forbid just "hiding" the notch with black on iDevices at least initially, but no such issues here. So overall really doesn't seem like it's a problem in this case, even for those who are fairly bothered on phones/tablets. A Mac screen isn't bad for it. And of course, part of the highlighted point of these new machines is being able to drive a bunch of external displays too.
kingcharles 5y ago
The notch is a transition technology. Suck it up now and in a couple of years the camera and other sensors should all be behind the screen like they are on the more out-there Android devices right now.

aaroninsf 5y ago

I think I stopped "seeing" the notch a few days after upgrading to a model with one. It is not "there" for me cognitively. I imagine the same will be true with a notched laptop display, especially if it is "hiding" in the menu bar. But I am also surprised it's so big, I wonder if once you commit to notching there is a minimum width that becomes harder to mask perceptually...

s3r3nity 5y ago

It's a much better compromise than the pop-up selfie cameras that were a fad for a sec, but then died because of the extra compromises needed for water resistance, battery, extra motor, etc.

hu3 5y ago
There are under-display cameras these days. https://www.smartprix.com/bytes/under-display-camera-phones/ https://www.smartprix.com/bytes/under-display-camera-phones/
- wmf 5y ago
  And reviews say they're terrible.
  - hu3 5y ago
    Of all tech giants, I expect Apple to improve the status quo the most. They are really good at it.
adrusi 5y ago
The pop-up cameras proved reliable and I used a OnePlus 7 Pro for two years, and found it adequately water resistant (good enough for me to give it a rinse in the sink every now and then). The internal space that the module occupied was the only real disadvantage of the pop-up camera, restricting the space available for the battery. Although I didn't have any complaints about the battery life of this phone.

katsura 5y ago

Not to mention that I, for example, have the top bar automatically hidden on my mac. Meaning, if I ever decided to buy one of these, I'd have to have it always shown, or I won't be able to click on some of my browser tabs? How does full screen mode work with this, I wonder?

dkonofalski 5y ago
I would imagine that it letterboxes the display for any apps that don't support the extended display.
- emsy 5y ago
  Hopefully they will stop the mouse at the letterbox border, otherwise it would be terrible UX.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    I would imagine that this would be determined on an application level. Some apps may want a fullscreen version that has controls at the top.

dkonofalski 5y ago

I don't understand why you'd have an issue with it? The screen area cuts into the previous gen's bezel so, at worst, you'd just black out the top of the screen to have the exact same screen size as before and, at best, you can use the extra display for things like the menu bar. What's the issue?

incrudible 5y ago
If you don't "get it" just by looking at it, then good for you. There are no technical arguments to make me "unsee" it. It's ugly. It displeases my sense of aesthetics. It's the Hitler mustache of industrial design.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  >It displeases my sense of aesthetics. Or lack thereof.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    No, you! Seriously, look at the promo images that Apple created for this product: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-14-and-16/ The vast majority of these images hide the notch by not showing the menu bar at all, which is not how a Mac is generally used. The other images make it less noticable by putting it over a dark background. Does that convey confidence in the design, by the designers that were tasked to make it look good? The best thing you can say is: It's not that noticeable under certain conditions.
    - laurent92 5y ago
      The notch reminds me of Macron: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DO0bQ83UMAAUabp.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DO0bQ83UMAAUabp.jpg:large It’s not only a joke, it’s also that once you see it, you understand that the aesthetics of a notch aren’t based in sleek features, but in function-over-form.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago

kayodelycaon 5y ago

What's the other option? Under the screen has image quality issues. A thicker bezel means less screen space. Sticking up over the display is a worse compromise. Putting it on the bottom of the display really isn't ideal. For most people, the only thing it covers is the menu bar.

incrudible 5y ago
> Under the screen has image quality issues. I don't care. You need to process the hell out of a selfie image so you don't look like a goblin anyway. I'm sure the ML wizards at Apple can figure this out. > A thicker bezel means less screen space. The notch is a huge bezel with cutouts. > Sticking up over the display is a worse compromise. Putting it on the bottom of the display really isn't ideal. I agree. > For most people, the only thing it covers is the menu bar. It's not about what it covers, it's about harmony. A small hole is also superior, though most Android phones do not get the positioning right either. No, I don't care about Face ID, especially in the era of COVID. A finger print reader on the side or on the back is superior.
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  > No, I don't care about Face ID, especially in the era of COVID. A finger print reader on the side or on the back is superior. Conveniently, these have a fingerprint reader still on the device.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > The notch is a huge bezel with cutouts. The notch is a tiny part of what remains of the previous bezel. That space isn't usable on an older M1 MBP, either.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    It's not about usable space. It's about the look. A smaller bezel doesn't lead to a better appearance by itself, but even then I'm sure they could've made the bezel smaller either way. However, the notch isn't made to be of minimal size. It's intrusive. It's telling me: I'm here, deal with it.

quirino 5y ago

It's very likely they'll include an option to have a black bar at the top of the screen, so that the notch is not visible. With the new Mini-LED screen it will be hopefully be dark enough to hide it well.

xoa 5y ago

However one feels about extra usable screen space in iDevices, doesn't seem like as big a deal on the Mac. macOS has and has always had the core menu bar taking up the entire top of the screen. And even with a significant number of user menubar add-ons, the middle is often blank space since the menus from the left and add-ons from the right don't meet. Eyeballing the resolutions (about 1.54:1) it looks like this is pure gain, they took previous dead space and turned it into screen then stuck the general fixed UI element in there, with the camera taking up what is commonly blank space. Seems pretty function-driving-form as it should be. Also, particularly given the new improved local dimming, for any content that wants a plain rectangle (video, games) seems like just blacking the menu bar area will work well. Macs aren't rotating devices either, so the notch is always going to be in the same semi-dead-space spot and easy to work around. That's quite different than iOS devices (even the iPad). And even with Apple's regrettable increasing of barriers to modifiability, on macOS there remains plenty of freedom to do UX adjustments and for developers to do whatever they want outside of Apple's rules. IIRC for example Apple forbid just "hiding" the notch with black on iDevices at least initially, but no such issues here. So overall really doesn't seem like it's a problem in this case, even for those who are fairly bothered on phones/tablets. A Mac screen isn't bad for it. And of course, part of the highlighted point of these new machines is being able to drive a bunch of external displays too.

kingcharles 5y ago

The notch is a transition technology. Suck it up now and in a couple of years the camera and other sensors should all be behind the screen like they are on the more out-there Android devices right now.