5 ms·

Minor quibbles about game remarks: Contrary to what the article claims, draws in chess are very common (on the other hand, they're exceedingly rare in Go, and

by tromp 5y ago

Minor quibbles about game remarks: Contrary to what the article claims, draws in chess are very common (on the other hand, they're exceedingly rare in Go, and often impossible due to fractional komi). Sente in Go does correspond to having the initiative, but a move that compels a player into a particular follow-up move should be called a "kikashi" (forcing move).

elzbardico 5y ago
I'd even say that when playing black against someone of roughly the same or higher level than you, a draw is your goal.
- jacobsenscott 5y ago
  White's advantage is so small - this is only true at the very highest levels of play.
raziel2p 5y ago
Draws are extremely common in high level play, and statistics don't seem to exist for all levels of play, but I'm willing to guess that it's fairly uncommon across all games of rating 1600 or higher.
- danielbarla 5y ago
  I agree that publicly available large datasets / statistics become fairly rare below the 1600, above that level they are fairly common. But anecdotally, I once messed around with a bunch of large datasets for the purpose of comparing high-level play to lower ones, and the statistics weren't spectacularly different. Yes, the results are essentially far more random the lower you go (especially below 1800, where play is essentially a lot less accurate), but draws are still fairly common at the 1600 level. If memory serves, top-level games had around two-thirds end in a draw, while at the 1600 level, it was basically down to one third. Not what I would call uncommon, though certainly no longer the dominant result.
- kmm 5y ago
  According to the Lichess opening explorer[0], across their ~419 million games, only 5.3% ended in a draw. If you change the database from Lichess to Masters however, with a total of 2 million games, about 43% end in a draw. Anecdotally, I'm rated ~1700 and only 2% of my games were drawn, and most of those were stalemates. 0: https://lichess.org/analysis#explorer https://lichess.org/analysis#explorer
MauranKilom 5y ago
Also, the king is never taken in chess. Well, outside of variants at least. But that's admittedly irrelevant to the article.
rocqua 5y ago
Generally in Go 'draw' does not exist. The exceptions are non-fractional komi, and the exceedingly rare triple ko, which does not technically cause a draw, just an infinite game. Which is generally resolved as a 'draw' by mutual agreement. There are interesting rule variants to exclude the option of infinite games, but they have weird side-effects. I'd feel confident saying that normal go (19x19 japanese rules with 6.5 komi) does not have draws.
- ameminator 5y ago
  Hey, where's the love for triple Ko?
- aurelianito 5y ago
  AFAIK, triple ko games are usually played again, and they are extremely rare.
platz 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_strategy_and_tactics#Sente_and_gote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_strategy_and_tactics#Sente_... > A player whose moves compel the opponent to respond in a local position is said to have sente (先手), meaning they player has the initiative; the opponent is said to have gote (後手). Sente means 'preceding move' (lit: 'before hand'), whereas gote means 'succeeding move' (lit: after hand'). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms#Kikashi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms#Kikashi > Unlike sente, though, a move is kikashi when it yields a high efficiency in play by forcing the opponent to abandon a course of action. Kikashi seems rather techincal and quite narrow in where it can be applied.
- conistonwater 5y ago
  Wikipedia isn't very good at explaining go, Sensei's Library is much better and has the advantage of being written by go players for other go players: https://senseis.xmp.net/?Kikashi https://senseis.xmp.net/?Kikashi https://senseis.xmp.net/?Sente https://senseis.xmp.net/?Sente
squidlogic 5y ago
This sounds similar to the concept of tempo in chess. A move that comes "with a tempo on a piece" is a move that gains a tempo by attacking that piece.
29athrowaway 5y ago
Historically, draw was possible due to both players getting the same amount of points ("jigo"), but when playing under most popular modern rulesets, fractional komi serves as a tiebreaker. Games can be voided due to a complex ko or superko. There are modern rulesets with non-fractional komi such as the Ing rules (komi = 8.0) where jigo is possible. But under those rules, in the case of jigo, black wins... making komi effectively the same as 7.5. For multiple games (e.g.: jubango), a draw can be declared if both players win the same number of games.

by tromp 5y ago

elzbardico 5y ago

I'd even say that when playing black against someone of roughly the same or higher level than you, a draw is your goal.

jacobsenscott 5y ago
White's advantage is so small - this is only true at the very highest levels of play.

raziel2p 5y ago

Draws are extremely common in high level play, and statistics don't seem to exist for all levels of play, but I'm willing to guess that it's fairly uncommon across all games of rating 1600 or higher.

danielbarla 5y ago
I agree that publicly available large datasets / statistics become fairly rare below the 1600, above that level they are fairly common. But anecdotally, I once messed around with a bunch of large datasets for the purpose of comparing high-level play to lower ones, and the statistics weren't spectacularly different. Yes, the results are essentially far more random the lower you go (especially below 1800, where play is essentially a lot less accurate), but draws are still fairly common at the 1600 level. If memory serves, top-level games had around two-thirds end in a draw, while at the 1600 level, it was basically down to one third. Not what I would call uncommon, though certainly no longer the dominant result.
kmm 5y ago
According to the Lichess opening explorer[0], across their ~419 million games, only 5.3% ended in a draw. If you change the database from Lichess to Masters however, with a total of 2 million games, about 43% end in a draw. Anecdotally, I'm rated ~1700 and only 2% of my games were drawn, and most of those were stalemates. 0: https://lichess.org/analysis#explorer https://lichess.org/analysis#explorer

MauranKilom 5y ago

Also, the king is never taken in chess. Well, outside of variants at least. But that's admittedly irrelevant to the article.

rocqua 5y ago

Generally in Go 'draw' does not exist. The exceptions are non-fractional komi, and the exceedingly rare triple ko, which does not technically cause a draw, just an infinite game. Which is generally resolved as a 'draw' by mutual agreement. There are interesting rule variants to exclude the option of infinite games, but they have weird side-effects. I'd feel confident saying that normal go (19x19 japanese rules with 6.5 komi) does not have draws.

ameminator 5y ago
Hey, where's the love for triple Ko?
aurelianito 5y ago
AFAIK, triple ko games are usually played again, and they are extremely rare.

platz 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_strategy_and_tactics#Sente_and_gote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_strategy_and_tactics#Sente_... > A player whose moves compel the opponent to respond in a local position is said to have sente (先手), meaning they player has the initiative; the opponent is said to have gote (後手). Sente means 'preceding move' (lit: 'before hand'), whereas gote means 'succeeding move' (lit: after hand'). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms#Kikashi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms#Kikashi > Unlike sente, though, a move is kikashi when it yields a high efficiency in play by forcing the opponent to abandon a course of action. Kikashi seems rather techincal and quite narrow in where it can be applied.

conistonwater 5y ago
Wikipedia isn't very good at explaining go, Sensei's Library is much better and has the advantage of being written by go players for other go players: https://senseis.xmp.net/?Kikashi https://senseis.xmp.net/?Kikashi https://senseis.xmp.net/?Sente https://senseis.xmp.net/?Sente

squidlogic 5y ago

This sounds similar to the concept of tempo in chess. A move that comes "with a tempo on a piece" is a move that gains a tempo by attacking that piece.

29athrowaway 5y ago

Historically, draw was possible due to both players getting the same amount of points ("jigo"), but when playing under most popular modern rulesets, fractional komi serves as a tiebreaker. Games can be voided due to a complex ko or superko. There are modern rulesets with non-fractional komi such as the Ing rules (komi = 8.0) where jigo is possible. But under those rules, in the case of jigo, black wins... making komi effectively the same as 7.5. For multiple games (e.g.: jubango), a draw can be declared if both players win the same number of games.