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>Additionally, the idea that anyone alive today could truly understand “what our founders had in mind” is completely irrational.[...] I cannot believe that som

>Additionally, the idea that anyone alive today could truly understand “what our founders had in mind” is completely irrational.[...] I cannot believe that someone that writes this has ever read anything the American Founding fathers have written. They were very prolific writers, and pretty much everything is available online for free. The author should read those before trying to imply that people who disagree with him are some tasteless and ignorant fools.

m000 5y ago
The thing is, it doesn't matter what the founding fathers have written (or not). If you have to appeal to a (supposed) authority, then you're probably talking BS. The founding fathers were important historical figures, but they were also men of their time. Did anyone ever asked "What would George Washington say about electric cars?". No, because he wouldn't have a clue.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure Ben Franklin would be fascinated. Your point still stands, however. To think that the wisdom of white male slave owners is somewhat unquestionable is so deeply flawed i can’t assume good intentions.
  - mellavora 5y ago
    Sigh. You question these people's wisdom because they are "white male slave owners". Did you ever think that because they were confronted with the reality of slavery they were much much more attuned to the issues of human rights than say a tech worker in our society who doesn't notice that almost everything they use and touch was made by slaves? Who built that iphone? Sewed your clothes? Who mined the cobalt which allows your lithium batteries? And even in the west, slave labor hasn't gone away. We just hide it in private prisons or "illegal" immigrants. We are much better at tech than the founding fathers, but I have no evidence that we are any better at moral and/or political philosophy (and quite a bit of evidence against).
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > because they were confronted with the reality of slavery they were much much more attuned to the issues of human rights than say a tech worker in our society I don’t think there is much evidence for that. > And even in the west, slave labor hasn't gone away. We just hide it in private prisons or "illegal" immigrants. More than that, we have Capitalism, that allows poor people to compete against each other about where is the point where one is too poor to have a job.
  - throwaway59553 5y ago
    >To think that the wisdom of white male slave owners is somewhat unquestionable is so deeply flawed i can’t assume good intentions. I don't know where you from, but maybe the USA (or any other Western country), is just not for you. Maybe you'd appreciate more the opposite end, something like Haiti, the product of the slaves who killed those evil white males you despise so much.
    - mellavora 5y ago
      Sigh. I think you are trying to argue the same point as I am, so I should be more supportive. Hati was not the best choice for a comparison. It wasn't the slave revolt which turned Hati into a hell country. It was the French insisting that the now free slaves had to "repay" for what they had "stolen" (and for the French losses when they tried to invade and re-take the country); the massive debt burden imposed by the French and supported by the other world powers crippled the country's economy for well over 100 years.
      - throwaway59553 5y ago
        That sound like really good excuses if multiple countries haven't also been destroyed by wars, had to pay billions in debt or any other things, and managed to reach a much more developed state. Yet the usual suspects can't reach the developed status, even with lots of foreign aid. You don't even need to go that far. Compare Haiti to Dominican Republic. But as someone once said "Demographics are Destiny".
- mellavora 5y ago
  Umm, what? So GW would not have had a clue about multiple types of users sharing a street? Like he never had to consider how people with different resources and needs might have to share a common utility? And wouldn't have a clue about how such a group of people could come to a decision which sufficiently met the needs of all??? My friend, discussions of these topics goes back at least to the ancient greeks.
- throwaway59553 5y ago
  >"What would George Washington say about electric cars?" That kind of silly comparison doesn't make any sense, and it's only a maneuver to skip any serious discussion when one is trapped without arguments. But if you ask how should the Republic operate, what kind of values and vision its public building should represent, then the opinion of the Founders is definitely very relevant.
  - pyrale 5y ago
    > the opinion of the Founders is definitely very relevant. They can express their opinion in the voting booth, then.
    - throwaway59553 5y ago
      I doubt either parties remotely represent any of the Founders ideas.
mellavora 5y ago
And the author could note the wide range of opinions these founders had. Their wisdom isn't because they spoke in a unified voice, rather the opposite. Their disagreements make visible deeply thought out ways of framing and weighing political decisions. Wisdom isn't "Use a monorepo" or "Use microservices". Wisdom is the debate between the two, allowing you to learn the strengths and pitfalls of each.

m000 5y ago

The thing is, it doesn't matter what the founding fathers have written (or not). If you have to appeal to a (supposed) authority, then you're probably talking BS. The founding fathers were important historical figures, but they were also men of their time. Did anyone ever asked "What would George Washington say about electric cars?". No, because he wouldn't have a clue.

rbanffy 5y ago
I’m pretty sure Ben Franklin would be fascinated. Your point still stands, however. To think that the wisdom of white male slave owners is somewhat unquestionable is so deeply flawed i can’t assume good intentions.
- mellavora 5y ago
  Sigh. You question these people's wisdom because they are "white male slave owners". Did you ever think that because they were confronted with the reality of slavery they were much much more attuned to the issues of human rights than say a tech worker in our society who doesn't notice that almost everything they use and touch was made by slaves? Who built that iphone? Sewed your clothes? Who mined the cobalt which allows your lithium batteries? And even in the west, slave labor hasn't gone away. We just hide it in private prisons or "illegal" immigrants. We are much better at tech than the founding fathers, but I have no evidence that we are any better at moral and/or political philosophy (and quite a bit of evidence against).
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > because they were confronted with the reality of slavery they were much much more attuned to the issues of human rights than say a tech worker in our society I don’t think there is much evidence for that. > And even in the west, slave labor hasn't gone away. We just hide it in private prisons or "illegal" immigrants. More than that, we have Capitalism, that allows poor people to compete against each other about where is the point where one is too poor to have a job.
- throwaway59553 5y ago
  >To think that the wisdom of white male slave owners is somewhat unquestionable is so deeply flawed i can’t assume good intentions. I don't know where you from, but maybe the USA (or any other Western country), is just not for you. Maybe you'd appreciate more the opposite end, something like Haiti, the product of the slaves who killed those evil white males you despise so much.
  - mellavora 5y ago
    Sigh. I think you are trying to argue the same point as I am, so I should be more supportive. Hati was not the best choice for a comparison. It wasn't the slave revolt which turned Hati into a hell country. It was the French insisting that the now free slaves had to "repay" for what they had "stolen" (and for the French losses when they tried to invade and re-take the country); the massive debt burden imposed by the French and supported by the other world powers crippled the country's economy for well over 100 years.
    - throwaway59553 5y ago
      That sound like really good excuses if multiple countries haven't also been destroyed by wars, had to pay billions in debt or any other things, and managed to reach a much more developed state. Yet the usual suspects can't reach the developed status, even with lots of foreign aid. You don't even need to go that far. Compare Haiti to Dominican Republic. But as someone once said "Demographics are Destiny".
mellavora 5y ago
Umm, what? So GW would not have had a clue about multiple types of users sharing a street? Like he never had to consider how people with different resources and needs might have to share a common utility? And wouldn't have a clue about how such a group of people could come to a decision which sufficiently met the needs of all??? My friend, discussions of these topics goes back at least to the ancient greeks.
throwaway59553 5y ago
>"What would George Washington say about electric cars?" That kind of silly comparison doesn't make any sense, and it's only a maneuver to skip any serious discussion when one is trapped without arguments. But if you ask how should the Republic operate, what kind of values and vision its public building should represent, then the opinion of the Founders is definitely very relevant.
- pyrale 5y ago
  > the opinion of the Founders is definitely very relevant. They can express their opinion in the voting booth, then.
  - throwaway59553 5y ago
    I doubt either parties remotely represent any of the Founders ideas.

mellavora 5y ago

And the author could note the wide range of opinions these founders had. Their wisdom isn't because they spoke in a unified voice, rather the opposite. Their disagreements make visible deeply thought out ways of framing and weighing political decisions. Wisdom isn't "Use a monorepo" or "Use microservices". Wisdom is the debate between the two, allowing you to learn the strengths and pitfalls of each.