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Rather balanced article, but like many fails to mention one really important aspect of Bitcoin: There is a IMO a very tangible market demand for a financial pr

Rather balanced article, but like many fails to mention one really important aspect of Bitcoin: There is a IMO a very tangible market demand for a financial product that allows one to completely shield value from the myriad of value-eroding propositions that have been baked into the traditional financial system to essentially bleed you dry on a long enough timeline. - "management" fees - capital gain taxes - death taxes (inheritance taxes) - asset seizures (divorces, bankruptcy, random court decisions against you, Cyprus Bank Disaster [1], etc...) - inflation (govt mandated or otherwise) - etc ... No such product exists today in traditional finance, and imo quite a bit of the demand for Bitcoin comes from there. For example, many of the traditional way to shield your wealth (stock market, commodities, real-estate) fail to be prone to some of the events I list above. You may not agree that Bitcoin solves all of the above, in which case please list something that gets as close. The fact that some of the things listed above will be viewed by some as "morally reprehensible" is irrelevant to the conversation: moral or not, the demand still exists. And for folks who look at Bitcoin for this (shielding wealth) the fact that Bitcoin has gone parabolic in the last 10 years is kind of a nice cherry on the cake. Yes, if you decide to use BTC to shield value, you are taking a rather big risk (volatility, BTC could be hurt by govt cracking down on it, there will be a huge "event" when Tether finally implodes, etc ...). But again, please list something that comes any closer to solving the problem. The above is why I believe people who claim Bitcoin has no "intrinsic value" (a term I consider to be entirely meaningless) are wrong, even using their own definition of "intrinsic value". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%932013_Cypriot_financial_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%932013_Cypriot_fina...

yardstick 5y ago
Some of the items you listed apply to crypto assets just like regular assets. It’s just the enforcement of the laws hasn’t been as consistent as with other physical financial assets. Specifically: “ - capital gain taxes - death taxes (inheritance taxes) - asset seizures (divorces, bankruptcy, random court decisions against you, Cyprus Bank Disaster [1], etc...)” And > The fact that some of the things listed above will be viewed by some as "morally reprehensible" is irrelevant to the conversation: moral or not, the demand still exists. Isn’t it more a legal issue than moral? Evading tax is a criminal matter I thought.
- ur-whale 5y ago
  > Evading tax is a criminal matter I thought. In the US it is. Other, more humane jurisdictions view it as an infraction: if caught, you'll get fined, but you won't go to jail.
  - yardstick 5y ago
    Such as? UK, NZ, CA, US, AU all at a quick check consider tax evasion a crime (not just a civil infraction).
    - ur-whale 5y ago
      > UK, NZ, CA, US, AU You mean the anglo world? Their laws all look the same. That doesn't make them moral or right. To answer your question, I am not 100% certain, but I believe CH falls in the category I describe.
      - yardstick 5y ago
        CH has criminal prosecutions for tax fraud too.
WoodenChair 5y ago
> There is a IMO a very tangible market demand for a financial product that allows one to completely shield value from the myriad of value-eroding propositions that have been baked into the traditional financial system to essentially bleed you dry on a long enough timeline. - "management" fees - capital gain taxes - death taxes (inheritance taxes) - asset seizures (divorces, bankruptcy, random court decisions against you, Cyprus Bank Disaster [1], etc...) - inflation (govt mandated or otherwise) - etc ... Bitcoin does not shield you from capital gains taxes [0] or asset seizures since it's classified as property by the government. At least not in the US. 0: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/19/do-you-owe-taxes-on-bitcoin.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/19/do-you-owe-taxes-on-bitcoin....
- ur-whale 5y ago
  >Bitcoin does not shield you from capital gains taxes [0] or asset seizures since it's classified as property by the government. At least not in the US. It is my admittedly limited understanding of US tax law that - as long as you don't sell - you aren't getting taxed on gains (unrealized capital gains). Should you then decide to use your coins to directly buy - say - a house in Japan: since no actual Yen-denominated price is ever involved in the transaction, how will the US government evaluated your realized capital gains? Also: the US is but one place in the world. There are quite a few folks on this earth that aren't burdened with a US passport, and quite a few places that don't have capital gains on crypto sales.
  - WoodenChair 5y ago
    > Also: the US is but one place in the world. There are quite a few folks on this earth that aren't burdened with a US passport, and quite a few places that don't have capital gains on crypto sales. Many other countries are taxing bitcoin as well. In fact it's the rare exception (Google seems to indicate about a dozen) that doesn't tax bitcoin. Your original statement about bitcoin being a way of avoiding capital gains taxes is simply false for most people. > It is my admittedly limited understanding of US tax law that - as long as you don't sell - you aren't getting taxed on gains (unrealized capital gains). And of course capital gains only happen when you sell. That's why it's a gain (the difference between the sale price and purchase price). That's the same way selling stocks works too. You only pay the capital gains tax when you sell.
deleted 5y ago
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yardstick 5y ago

Some of the items you listed apply to crypto assets just like regular assets. It’s just the enforcement of the laws hasn’t been as consistent as with other physical financial assets. Specifically: “ - capital gain taxes - death taxes (inheritance taxes) - asset seizures (divorces, bankruptcy, random court decisions against you, Cyprus Bank Disaster [1], etc...)” And > The fact that some of the things listed above will be viewed by some as "morally reprehensible" is irrelevant to the conversation: moral or not, the demand still exists. Isn’t it more a legal issue than moral? Evading tax is a criminal matter I thought.

ur-whale 5y ago
> Evading tax is a criminal matter I thought. In the US it is. Other, more humane jurisdictions view it as an infraction: if caught, you'll get fined, but you won't go to jail.
- yardstick 5y ago
  Such as? UK, NZ, CA, US, AU all at a quick check consider tax evasion a crime (not just a civil infraction).
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    > UK, NZ, CA, US, AU You mean the anglo world? Their laws all look the same. That doesn't make them moral or right. To answer your question, I am not 100% certain, but I believe CH falls in the category I describe.
    - yardstick 5y ago
      CH has criminal prosecutions for tax fraud too.

WoodenChair 5y ago

> There is a IMO a very tangible market demand for a financial product that allows one to completely shield value from the myriad of value-eroding propositions that have been baked into the traditional financial system to essentially bleed you dry on a long enough timeline. - "management" fees - capital gain taxes - death taxes (inheritance taxes) - asset seizures (divorces, bankruptcy, random court decisions against you, Cyprus Bank Disaster [1], etc...) - inflation (govt mandated or otherwise) - etc ... Bitcoin does not shield you from capital gains taxes [0] or asset seizures since it's classified as property by the government. At least not in the US. 0: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/19/do-you-owe-taxes-on-bitcoin.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/19/do-you-owe-taxes-on-bitcoin....

ur-whale 5y ago
>Bitcoin does not shield you from capital gains taxes [0] or asset seizures since it's classified as property by the government. At least not in the US. It is my admittedly limited understanding of US tax law that - as long as you don't sell - you aren't getting taxed on gains (unrealized capital gains). Should you then decide to use your coins to directly buy - say - a house in Japan: since no actual Yen-denominated price is ever involved in the transaction, how will the US government evaluated your realized capital gains? Also: the US is but one place in the world. There are quite a few folks on this earth that aren't burdened with a US passport, and quite a few places that don't have capital gains on crypto sales.
- WoodenChair 5y ago
  > Also: the US is but one place in the world. There are quite a few folks on this earth that aren't burdened with a US passport, and quite a few places that don't have capital gains on crypto sales. Many other countries are taxing bitcoin as well. In fact it's the rare exception (Google seems to indicate about a dozen) that doesn't tax bitcoin. Your original statement about bitcoin being a way of avoiding capital gains taxes is simply false for most people. > It is my admittedly limited understanding of US tax law that - as long as you don't sell - you aren't getting taxed on gains (unrealized capital gains). And of course capital gains only happen when you sell. That's why it's a gain (the difference between the sale price and purchase price). That's the same way selling stocks works too. You only pay the capital gains tax when you sell.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]