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What surprises me is the constant negative drum beat against Bitcoin on Hackernews. Mostly based on speculation.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nuerow 5y ago
> What surprises me is the constant negative drum beat against Bitcoin on Hackernews. Why does that surprise you? As the article from this discussion shows, there is strong evidence supporting the idea that crypto in general "it's just a big scheme".
- ur-whale 5y ago
  > "it's just a big scheme". Who's doing the scheming, I wonder?
  - nuerow 5y ago
    > Who's doing the scheming, I wonder? As with all pump-and-dump schemes, obviously those who pump it. Let's put it differently: what concrete, real-world, tangible value is there driving crypto speculation? Is there any at all? It boggles the mind how crypto proponents try to frame crypto in general and their own investments in particular as something that has this sky-high intrinsic value based only on potential popularity and a belief that they can pump them up indefinitely.
    - ur-whale 5y ago
      > what concrete, real-world, tangible value is there driving crypto speculation? For a possible answer, please read my other post in this thread.
      - nuerow 5y ago
        > For a possible answer, please read my other post in this thread. You've posted an awful lot of messages, but the only one remotely related to crypto's intrinsic value was the following post which makes no relevant point at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28902307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28902307 In it, your main thesis is that you allege that crypto offers a way to "completely shield value", which is outright and patently false. Even so, trying to portray crypto in general and BTC in particular as serving as a store of value is an absurd notion from the start, as it's renowned for being highly volatile and so prone to crashes that halve it's value that crypto's hardline proponents already invented the concept of periodic corrections.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Those of us who have been here for a long time heard this story plenty of times before. Ah, but this time it's different? Distributed technology eats everything.
  - nuerow 5y ago
    > Those of us who have been here for a long time heard this story plenty of times before. Getting into a pyramid scheme early does not grant anyone any special insight onto how it is not a pyramid scheme. All they get is the benefits from getting in early, confirmation bias, and an irrational belief that not only past performance guarantees future results but also there is absolutely no growth ceiling.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      I would love to be in a pyramid scheme where people keep sending me money. But that is not the case with crypto is it. Maybe take a look what pyramid schemes really look like. Here is the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
      - Jensson 5y ago
        You are just looking at one specific type of pyramid scheme. See for example: > Matrix schemes use the same fraudulent, unsustainable system as a pyramid; here, the participants pay to join a waiting list for a desirable product, which only a fraction of them can ever receive. You pay dollars expecting to get a lot of dollars in the future. This is why most pay for bitcoin, and since it is impossible for everyone to make money it is a pyramid scheme. The future payoff can only happen if a lot of other people pay more dollars, which will be used to pay you. And since the system constantly extracts money to pay for all the hashing it is impossible for everyone to even break even, people will lose a ton of money in the end. This is different from normal currency trading. When you buy dollars you are betting on the US government and the US market to be strong so the dollar gains value. Bitcoin however doesn't have any backing like that, it is a negative sum game. Edit: The core concept of pyramid schemes is this, basically it is a business model which requires infinite new entrants to be sustainable. Bitcoin is like that, it only works as long as bitcoin enthusiasts continue to recruit new people to invest in bitcoin. Hence bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, even if there isn't any tax on sub transactions. > Pyramid schemes are based on network marketing, where each person in the pyramid is tasked with bringing in their own subordinates and in turn profiting from their sales or recruitments. This fails because it essentially requires an infinite number of people to join the company.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

> What surprises me is the constant negative drum beat against Bitcoin on Hackernews. Why does that surprise you? As the article from this discussion shows, there is strong evidence supporting the idea that crypto in general "it's just a big scheme".

ur-whale 5y ago
> "it's just a big scheme". Who's doing the scheming, I wonder?
- nuerow 5y ago
  > Who's doing the scheming, I wonder? As with all pump-and-dump schemes, obviously those who pump it. Let's put it differently: what concrete, real-world, tangible value is there driving crypto speculation? Is there any at all? It boggles the mind how crypto proponents try to frame crypto in general and their own investments in particular as something that has this sky-high intrinsic value based only on potential popularity and a belief that they can pump them up indefinitely.
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    > what concrete, real-world, tangible value is there driving crypto speculation? For a possible answer, please read my other post in this thread.
    - nuerow 5y ago
      > For a possible answer, please read my other post in this thread. You've posted an awful lot of messages, but the only one remotely related to crypto's intrinsic value was the following post which makes no relevant point at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28902307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28902307 In it, your main thesis is that you allege that crypto offers a way to "completely shield value", which is outright and patently false. Even so, trying to portray crypto in general and BTC in particular as serving as a store of value is an absurd notion from the start, as it's renowned for being highly volatile and so prone to crashes that halve it's value that crypto's hardline proponents already invented the concept of periodic corrections.
koonsolo 5y ago
Those of us who have been here for a long time heard this story plenty of times before. Ah, but this time it's different? Distributed technology eats everything.
- nuerow 5y ago
  > Those of us who have been here for a long time heard this story plenty of times before. Getting into a pyramid scheme early does not grant anyone any special insight onto how it is not a pyramid scheme. All they get is the benefits from getting in early, confirmation bias, and an irrational belief that not only past performance guarantees future results but also there is absolutely no growth ceiling.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    I would love to be in a pyramid scheme where people keep sending me money. But that is not the case with crypto is it. Maybe take a look what pyramid schemes really look like. Here is the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
    - Jensson 5y ago
      You are just looking at one specific type of pyramid scheme. See for example: > Matrix schemes use the same fraudulent, unsustainable system as a pyramid; here, the participants pay to join a waiting list for a desirable product, which only a fraction of them can ever receive. You pay dollars expecting to get a lot of dollars in the future. This is why most pay for bitcoin, and since it is impossible for everyone to make money it is a pyramid scheme. The future payoff can only happen if a lot of other people pay more dollars, which will be used to pay you. And since the system constantly extracts money to pay for all the hashing it is impossible for everyone to even break even, people will lose a ton of money in the end. This is different from normal currency trading. When you buy dollars you are betting on the US government and the US market to be strong so the dollar gains value. Bitcoin however doesn't have any backing like that, it is a negative sum game. Edit: The core concept of pyramid schemes is this, basically it is a business model which requires infinite new entrants to be sustainable. Bitcoin is like that, it only works as long as bitcoin enthusiasts continue to recruit new people to invest in bitcoin. Hence bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, even if there isn't any tax on sub transactions. > Pyramid schemes are based on network marketing, where each person in the pyramid is tasked with bringing in their own subordinates and in turn profiting from their sales or recruitments. This fails because it essentially requires an infinite number of people to join the company.