9 ms·

For those who haven't seen the special, the core of the controversy appears to be Chappelle mourning his friend, Daphne Dorman. She was a transgender standup co

by sxp 5y ago

For those who haven't seen the special, the core of the controversy appears to be Chappelle mourning his friend, Daphne Dorman. She was a transgender standup comedian who opened for Chappelle and defended his comedy against the Twitter mob. She killed herself shortly after she was canceled by the mob and Chappelle set up a trust fund for her daughter. Chappelle paid tribute to her in his special, but he did it in an offensive way. But given their relationship, the tribute was probably something she would have approved of and her family has defended Chappelle's tribute: https://deadline.com/2021/10/dave-chappelle-the-closer-defended-by-sisters-his-trans-friend-daphne-dorman-1234853511/ https://deadline.com/2021/10/dave-chappelle-the-closer-defen... Most of the outrage appears to come from people who haven't actually watched the special and are taking Chappelle's quotes about racism and LGBT issues out of context.

andrew_ 5y ago
> but he did it in an offensive way I find this part of the statement to be a falsehood. He did it in a comedic way, which was part of the point he was trying to make. See: https://nypost.com/2021/10/15/airplane-creator-slams-joy-killing-threat-twitter-9-percent/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/15/airplane-creator-slams-joy-kil...
- whiddershins 5y ago
  For me, calling comedy offensive isn’t even an insult. I am always prepared to be offended by comedy, and if I am, I will keep watching, but only if it is funny enough.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    My mom used to tell me a story about how she watched Pulp Fiction in theaters when it came out. Some of the scenes were so gross, offensive, horrific and bland that they drove the audience away in waves, until she and her friends were the only ones still there, laughing at how one film could make so many people upset.
- falcolas 5y ago
  Something said by a comedian doesn’t make it a joke. And something being a joke doesn’t shield it (or the teller) from criticism.
  - skeletron 5y ago
    A man claiming that he's a woman because he wears a dress and make-up and really believes he's a woman is kind of inherently funny, in an absurd way. Feels like we're all living inside a Monty Python sketch right now. That one from Life of Brian comes to mind. And if this is what people consider important enough to go on strike for, then that's even more bizarrely amusing. A thousand people bunking off work because a comedian told some jokes about this. It's astounding really.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      > A man claiming that he's a woman because he wears a dress and make-up and really believes he's a woman Actually, my understanding is that it's really only the radical activists who insist on that sort of thing. Most real-world trans folks are sensible enough to grok the fact that while they might perform socially as their gender of choice, they don't in fact embody it in the same way as someone who was assigned that gender at birth would.
      - skeletron 5y ago
        I think you may well be right, though it's hard to say just how many trans people aren't on board with these controversial ontological claims of gender identity activism - perhaps in part because those who speak out against it get accused of 'internalized transphobia' and such, and relentlessly bullied by the activists.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Agreed, as in a lot of times comedy is used as a fake excuse to get out of something that intended to offend. If the main point was critique with comedy, sure, it makes sense to see through it.
SantalBlush 5y ago
That is not what people are taking issue with. Regardless of where anyone stands on the issue, much of the special was about LGBT people, and the bit about his friend could hardly be construed as the most offensive part.
- busymom0 5y ago
  There’s thousands of skits about brown, black, white, asian, men, women and every other diversity box possible which everyone has loved laughing at for forever and continues to do so till this date. If one can’t stand jokes against their diversity box, then they aren’t seeking equality, they are seeking supremacy.
  - atonse 5y ago
    I know at least Indians LOVED Russell Peters in the 2000s precisely because he made such funny jokes about us that (this is what makes a lot of comedy great) were relatable. Most of us laughed along with everyone else.
    - busymom0 5y ago
      Yep, same here. There's a good interview of Russell Peters with Jordan Peterson where Russell talks about how whenever he would visit some country for his show, he would visit their local places to get a feel of what the people were like so that he could joke about it. That made him more relatable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRGkr0LGZDA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRGkr0LGZDA
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    What are you replying to? I'm not talking about whether or not it's okay to make fun of trans people. I'm saying the bit about Chappelle's friend was one of the least offensive parts of the special, and it's not the part that some people are taking issue with. I didn't even express my feelings about offensive comedy in my comment, you just inferred that because you have some axe to grind about the subject. For the record, I agree and I enjoy offensive comedy.
SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
The only positive mainstream review I’ve seen of his special was not all that positive, but that it was really a Rorschach test for your political leanings. What are the chances not one mainstream outlet had a positive review, was it really that unfunny? He makes jokes about Jews, and Blacks, and Whites, that are completely overshadowed by Twitter (which is not a real place) claiming it was entirely anti-trans. No one is claiming it was his funniest, but there was a subtext there. That it wasn’t about them, but about him. He’s not wrong at how successful without violence the trans movement has been compared to civil rights for blacks. I thought the goal was to be offensive at the beginning and end with the message that canceling comedians for jokes is bad for everyone.
- silexia 5y ago
  Dave Chappelle's new special is well worth watching. It is one of the best pieces of comedy by the greatest comedian of our time.
- lkey 5y ago
  More black trans women were violently murdered in 2020 than in any other year since HRC began tracking. https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2021 https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-tra... 2021 is looking to surpass that... Part of his criticism was centered around how the 'alphabet people' have made rapid strides, but that conveniently forgets that black people can be gay or trans too, and also haven't made the same gains white LGBTQ folks have. I'll gladly cede that America is more structurally and culturally anti-black than they are anti-LGBTQ, but that isn't the argument he was making. This is a pet peeve of mine, but someone actually tell me which millionaire/billionaire actually remained 'cancelled' after being cancelled. As far as I can tell, the only people actually being cancelled are the trans people being fired from their jobs for finding the special distasteful and voicing that publicly.
  - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
    >This is a pet peeve of mine, but someone actually tell me which millionaire/billionaire actually remained 'cancelled' after being cancelled. Papa John?
deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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newacct583 5y ago
There's nuance to be sure, but Chappelle's quotes aren't really very far out of context. He's been banging the anti-anti-anti-cancel-culture gong for years now, dancing constantly just shy of outright hate, deliberately. And this really was no different. The fact that he personally had a trans friend who was herself in a complicated relationship with the LGBT community[1] is interesting and notable. I'm not sure it's "context". Chapelle wasn't talking about Dorman in those quotes, and he certainly wasn't "mourning". [1] And, again, "cancelled by the mob" is a pretty poor summary.
ekianjo 5y ago
> but he did it in an offensive way. How so?
acdha 5y ago
I find it interesting that you use inflammatory language like “cancelled by the mob” while copying terminology and unsupported theories that tabloids like the Daily Mail use to incite outrage and mob-like reactions of their own. She committed suicide after what appears to be a troubled life, months after being criticized by other members of the trans community on Twitter. Unless you have some special knowledge of her motives beyond what was in the note, it seems exploitative to use it as a vehicle for your political views. Similarly, rather than claiming that people who are reacting negatively haven’t watched Chappelle’s special, it’d be better to try to engage intellectually with what they’re actually saying rather than finding an excuse not to.
- analognoise 5y ago
  It was six days after being dragged by Trans Twitter, according to Dave. Why engage with the jackals who drive one of their own to suicide and claim to have a negative opinion but won't watch the special? Why give them any special treatment?
  - acdha 5y ago
    Most of the stories point to this August 29th tweet: https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1166937728681791488 https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1166937728681791488 Maybe that dragged on, maybe there’s some private messages he heard about which aren’t public but the main point was simply that it seems like a politically convenient stretch to state with certainty that the blame goes entirely to an undefined “mob” rather than any of the other factors her friends and family acknowledge. I don’t love mob tactics but to be honest that read more like an an attempt to stir up a reactionary mob rather than calm things down.
    - analognoise 5y ago
      This is the same family that agreed with their friendship, and supported Dave talking about her story and their friendship? Sounds like we know who the real assholes in this whole thing are, and it's NOT Dave Chappelle.
    - 5y ago
hresvelgr 5y ago
If we want to talk about moral virtue, actions speak louder than words. Dave, by the sounds of it was a kind and gracious friend to Daphne and this was corroborated by her family. He offered her to open for him in a club as well, a great opportunity given his tenure as a comedian. In addition, upon hearing of her passing, setup a trust for her daughter. The twitter mob on the other hand tried to have her cancelled after she defended him because she knew that he had no ill-intent. In my opinion, the 1K employees who are walking are doing so on the flimsiest of moral foundations. Dave has done more for Daphne and her family than any of the 1K employees or the twitter mob ever will. Moral outrage is not generous or kind to anyone, period.
- rc2634 5y ago
  In the twisted world of Twitter, virtue-signaling and calling people out gets you more recognition than any kind action that actually makes a damn difference.
  - lborsato 5y ago
    The twisted world of Twitter consists of people who claim to care about others for internet points, yet have no idea what empathy is.
- clairity 5y ago
  this is now beyond the facts of the matter and has crossed over into controversy-as-marketing. (personally have no interest in this controversy, or chappelle, who i find angry and unfunny.)
- bawolff 5y ago
  I don't support internet mobs - they generally seem to hurt innocent people (or hurt the guilty in excess of what they deserve) - but i don't see those two as mutually exclusive. Presumably the twitter mob is mad (rightly or wrongly - i havent watched the special) about transphobia by Dave in general. It is entirely possible that Dave could be a great friend to Daphne and be transphobic at the same time. You can be friends with a trans person and transphobic at the same time (just like you can be sexist and friends with a woman at the same time, etc). Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Cancel culture is out of control really. That said these people have a bad reason to strike but they have to be allowed to strike and netflix has to be allowed to fire them if they want to. It's just the way free society goes. Freedom has consequences.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  They are not a union and are not "striking". Even if they were a union, they wouldn't be allowed to strike in order to force their employer to deplatform someone, they could only strike to get a contract. If they have a contract, they can't strike.
worrycue 5y ago
> She killed herself shortly after she was canceled by the mob I wonder at times how many more people the Twitter mob is going to hurt. So few people are even talking about it. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-puritans-mob-justice-canceled/619818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-pur... P.S. I didn't watch the special but I did watch a pirated clip (audio only) on YouTube from a show called The Closer - which I assume is the special in question.
RickJWagner 5y ago
Enough mob justice. It's time for a return to decency. Let the 1k go, if they must. They can walk out with their heads high and feeling like they've made a statement. But also let Chappelle continue to earn a living and hold his head high. There's room for both. Let the cancellations cease forthwith.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Let them go or plan to phase them out of the firm regardless of what happens? These sorts of events keep happening. At this point the pattern is very clear: if you hire very left wing employees then you're building the firm on an unexploded bomb. You can't predict what will cause it to go off or when it will occur, but it seems likely that at some point it will. How do you as an executive build robustness to this type of event? You can't simply "do the right thing" because the left's definition of "right thing" changes on a near weekly basis, and is often so outright deranged that doing the right thing would cause you to end up doing quite evil things to other people. Or you can wait then cave, but that just encourages them and means you'll carry the can for the company's performance even though you won't actually have decision making power, and responsibility without power is a terrible place to be. So there doesn't seem to be an easy fix, except ensuring you never get into that position in the first place by limiting your intake of very left wing employees. In the current environment it's probably enough to simply make yourself unattractive to these people via public announcements and policy, but for example when WhatsApp was rolling out encryption it was doing ideological screening interviews to ensure they wouldn't hire anyone who would freak out over a hardline privacy stance. Such interviews may quietly become more common. At the very least we should not be surprised if we see a raft of Coinbase style "we are a mission focused company" moves in the coming years.
  - t0mbstone 5y ago
    Maybe companies should adopt a practice of only hiring middle-of-the-road rational, calm, level-headed people, instead of people who are far left or far right?
    - 5y ago
me_me_me 5y ago
I will not believe anyone who is outraged at that special that they actually watched it. Its funny, its thoughtful and heartbreaking. You can tell he cared for Daphne and they had a insightful relationship.

by sxp 5y ago

andrew_ 5y ago

> but he did it in an offensive way I find this part of the statement to be a falsehood. He did it in a comedic way, which was part of the point he was trying to make. See: https://nypost.com/2021/10/15/airplane-creator-slams-joy-killing-threat-twitter-9-percent/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/15/airplane-creator-slams-joy-kil...

whiddershins 5y ago
For me, calling comedy offensive isn’t even an insult. I am always prepared to be offended by comedy, and if I am, I will keep watching, but only if it is funny enough.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  My mom used to tell me a story about how she watched Pulp Fiction in theaters when it came out. Some of the scenes were so gross, offensive, horrific and bland that they drove the audience away in waves, until she and her friends were the only ones still there, laughing at how one film could make so many people upset.
falcolas 5y ago
Something said by a comedian doesn’t make it a joke. And something being a joke doesn’t shield it (or the teller) from criticism.
- skeletron 5y ago
  A man claiming that he's a woman because he wears a dress and make-up and really believes he's a woman is kind of inherently funny, in an absurd way. Feels like we're all living inside a Monty Python sketch right now. That one from Life of Brian comes to mind. And if this is what people consider important enough to go on strike for, then that's even more bizarrely amusing. A thousand people bunking off work because a comedian told some jokes about this. It's astounding really.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > A man claiming that he's a woman because he wears a dress and make-up and really believes he's a woman Actually, my understanding is that it's really only the radical activists who insist on that sort of thing. Most real-world trans folks are sensible enough to grok the fact that while they might perform socially as their gender of choice, they don't in fact embody it in the same way as someone who was assigned that gender at birth would.
    - skeletron 5y ago
      I think you may well be right, though it's hard to say just how many trans people aren't on board with these controversial ontological claims of gender identity activism - perhaps in part because those who speak out against it get accused of 'internalized transphobia' and such, and relentlessly bullied by the activists.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Agreed, as in a lot of times comedy is used as a fake excuse to get out of something that intended to offend. If the main point was critique with comedy, sure, it makes sense to see through it.

SantalBlush 5y ago

That is not what people are taking issue with. Regardless of where anyone stands on the issue, much of the special was about LGBT people, and the bit about his friend could hardly be construed as the most offensive part.

busymom0 5y ago
There’s thousands of skits about brown, black, white, asian, men, women and every other diversity box possible which everyone has loved laughing at for forever and continues to do so till this date. If one can’t stand jokes against their diversity box, then they aren’t seeking equality, they are seeking supremacy.
- atonse 5y ago
  I know at least Indians LOVED Russell Peters in the 2000s precisely because he made such funny jokes about us that (this is what makes a lot of comedy great) were relatable. Most of us laughed along with everyone else.
  - busymom0 5y ago
    Yep, same here. There's a good interview of Russell Peters with Jordan Peterson where Russell talks about how whenever he would visit some country for his show, he would visit their local places to get a feel of what the people were like so that he could joke about it. That made him more relatable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRGkr0LGZDA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRGkr0LGZDA
- SantalBlush 5y ago
  What are you replying to? I'm not talking about whether or not it's okay to make fun of trans people. I'm saying the bit about Chappelle's friend was one of the least offensive parts of the special, and it's not the part that some people are taking issue with. I didn't even express my feelings about offensive comedy in my comment, you just inferred that because you have some axe to grind about the subject. For the record, I agree and I enjoy offensive comedy.

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago

The only positive mainstream review I’ve seen of his special was not all that positive, but that it was really a Rorschach test for your political leanings. What are the chances not one mainstream outlet had a positive review, was it really that unfunny? He makes jokes about Jews, and Blacks, and Whites, that are completely overshadowed by Twitter (which is not a real place) claiming it was entirely anti-trans. No one is claiming it was his funniest, but there was a subtext there. That it wasn’t about them, but about him. He’s not wrong at how successful without violence the trans movement has been compared to civil rights for blacks. I thought the goal was to be offensive at the beginning and end with the message that canceling comedians for jokes is bad for everyone.

silexia 5y ago
Dave Chappelle's new special is well worth watching. It is one of the best pieces of comedy by the greatest comedian of our time.
lkey 5y ago
More black trans women were violently murdered in 2020 than in any other year since HRC began tracking. https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2021 https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-tra... 2021 is looking to surpass that... Part of his criticism was centered around how the 'alphabet people' have made rapid strides, but that conveniently forgets that black people can be gay or trans too, and also haven't made the same gains white LGBTQ folks have. I'll gladly cede that America is more structurally and culturally anti-black than they are anti-LGBTQ, but that isn't the argument he was making. This is a pet peeve of mine, but someone actually tell me which millionaire/billionaire actually remained 'cancelled' after being cancelled. As far as I can tell, the only people actually being cancelled are the trans people being fired from their jobs for finding the special distasteful and voicing that publicly.
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  >This is a pet peeve of mine, but someone actually tell me which millionaire/billionaire actually remained 'cancelled' after being cancelled. Papa John?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

newacct583 5y ago

There's nuance to be sure, but Chappelle's quotes aren't really very far out of context. He's been banging the anti-anti-anti-cancel-culture gong for years now, dancing constantly just shy of outright hate, deliberately. And this really was no different. The fact that he personally had a trans friend who was herself in a complicated relationship with the LGBT community[1] is interesting and notable. I'm not sure it's "context". Chapelle wasn't talking about Dorman in those quotes, and he certainly wasn't "mourning". [1] And, again, "cancelled by the mob" is a pretty poor summary.

ekianjo 5y ago

> but he did it in an offensive way. How so?

acdha 5y ago

I find it interesting that you use inflammatory language like “cancelled by the mob” while copying terminology and unsupported theories that tabloids like the Daily Mail use to incite outrage and mob-like reactions of their own. She committed suicide after what appears to be a troubled life, months after being criticized by other members of the trans community on Twitter. Unless you have some special knowledge of her motives beyond what was in the note, it seems exploitative to use it as a vehicle for your political views. Similarly, rather than claiming that people who are reacting negatively haven’t watched Chappelle’s special, it’d be better to try to engage intellectually with what they’re actually saying rather than finding an excuse not to.

analognoise 5y ago
It was six days after being dragged by Trans Twitter, according to Dave. Why engage with the jackals who drive one of their own to suicide and claim to have a negative opinion but won't watch the special? Why give them any special treatment?
- acdha 5y ago
  Most of the stories point to this August 29th tweet: https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1166937728681791488 https://twitter.com/DaphneDorman/status/1166937728681791488 Maybe that dragged on, maybe there’s some private messages he heard about which aren’t public but the main point was simply that it seems like a politically convenient stretch to state with certainty that the blame goes entirely to an undefined “mob” rather than any of the other factors her friends and family acknowledge. I don’t love mob tactics but to be honest that read more like an an attempt to stir up a reactionary mob rather than calm things down.
  - analognoise 5y ago
    This is the same family that agreed with their friendship, and supported Dave talking about her story and their friendship? Sounds like we know who the real assholes in this whole thing are, and it's NOT Dave Chappelle.
  - 5y ago

hresvelgr 5y ago

If we want to talk about moral virtue, actions speak louder than words. Dave, by the sounds of it was a kind and gracious friend to Daphne and this was corroborated by her family. He offered her to open for him in a club as well, a great opportunity given his tenure as a comedian. In addition, upon hearing of her passing, setup a trust for her daughter. The twitter mob on the other hand tried to have her cancelled after she defended him because she knew that he had no ill-intent. In my opinion, the 1K employees who are walking are doing so on the flimsiest of moral foundations. Dave has done more for Daphne and her family than any of the 1K employees or the twitter mob ever will. Moral outrage is not generous or kind to anyone, period.

rc2634 5y ago
In the twisted world of Twitter, virtue-signaling and calling people out gets you more recognition than any kind action that actually makes a damn difference.
- lborsato 5y ago
  The twisted world of Twitter consists of people who claim to care about others for internet points, yet have no idea what empathy is.
clairity 5y ago
this is now beyond the facts of the matter and has crossed over into controversy-as-marketing. (personally have no interest in this controversy, or chappelle, who i find angry and unfunny.)
bawolff 5y ago
I don't support internet mobs - they generally seem to hurt innocent people (or hurt the guilty in excess of what they deserve) - but i don't see those two as mutually exclusive. Presumably the twitter mob is mad (rightly or wrongly - i havent watched the special) about transphobia by Dave in general. It is entirely possible that Dave could be a great friend to Daphne and be transphobic at the same time. You can be friends with a trans person and transphobic at the same time (just like you can be sexist and friends with a woman at the same time, etc). Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Cancel culture is out of control really. That said these people have a bad reason to strike but they have to be allowed to strike and netflix has to be allowed to fire them if they want to. It's just the way free society goes. Freedom has consequences.

rsj_hn 5y ago
They are not a union and are not "striking". Even if they were a union, they wouldn't be allowed to strike in order to force their employer to deplatform someone, they could only strike to get a contract. If they have a contract, they can't strike.

worrycue 5y ago

> She killed herself shortly after she was canceled by the mob I wonder at times how many more people the Twitter mob is going to hurt. So few people are even talking about it. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-puritans-mob-justice-canceled/619818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/10/new-pur... P.S. I didn't watch the special but I did watch a pirated clip (audio only) on YouTube from a show called The Closer - which I assume is the special in question.

RickJWagner 5y ago

Enough mob justice. It's time for a return to decency. Let the 1k go, if they must. They can walk out with their heads high and feeling like they've made a statement. But also let Chappelle continue to earn a living and hold his head high. There's room for both. Let the cancellations cease forthwith.

native_samples 5y ago
Let them go or plan to phase them out of the firm regardless of what happens? These sorts of events keep happening. At this point the pattern is very clear: if you hire very left wing employees then you're building the firm on an unexploded bomb. You can't predict what will cause it to go off or when it will occur, but it seems likely that at some point it will. How do you as an executive build robustness to this type of event? You can't simply "do the right thing" because the left's definition of "right thing" changes on a near weekly basis, and is often so outright deranged that doing the right thing would cause you to end up doing quite evil things to other people. Or you can wait then cave, but that just encourages them and means you'll carry the can for the company's performance even though you won't actually have decision making power, and responsibility without power is a terrible place to be. So there doesn't seem to be an easy fix, except ensuring you never get into that position in the first place by limiting your intake of very left wing employees. In the current environment it's probably enough to simply make yourself unattractive to these people via public announcements and policy, but for example when WhatsApp was rolling out encryption it was doing ideological screening interviews to ensure they wouldn't hire anyone who would freak out over a hardline privacy stance. Such interviews may quietly become more common. At the very least we should not be surprised if we see a raft of Coinbase style "we are a mission focused company" moves in the coming years.
- t0mbstone 5y ago
  Maybe companies should adopt a practice of only hiring middle-of-the-road rational, calm, level-headed people, instead of people who are far left or far right?
  - 5y ago

me_me_me 5y ago

I will not believe anyone who is outraged at that special that they actually watched it. Its funny, its thoughtful and heartbreaking. You can tell he cared for Daphne and they had a insightful relationship.