6 ms·

How Chinese Education System Helps and Hurts China

35 points by rblion 15y ago

rblion 15y ago
"The gaokao rewards a special type of student: very strong memory; very strong logical and analytical ability; little imagination; little desire to question authority," says Jiang Xueqin, a Yale-educated school administrator in Beijing. "That person does well on the gaokao--as well as on the SAT, by the way."
- cafard 15y ago
  Sounds like the old German "Abitur". Americans thought the system deadly, but some remarkable minds came out of it OK, along with of course hordes who were merely competent.
  - smcj 15y ago
    Not really. Unlike the US-style of multiple choice tests you are actually required to think, form an opinion, lay out considerations and cite facts (unless it is math). Teachers actually read the whole thing and grade you based on what you have written. That's why it can take a few weeks to get the results. Not comparable to multiple choice stuff, which can be corrected by every first-grader.
wisty 15y ago
There's plenty of empirical research that suggests "low level" mastery is all you really need for creative "high level" stuff. And I think sumative exams can be fairer (and possibly even kinder) than ongoing assessment. Imagine the corruption that would set in if schools were running tests every week, or worse, giving students assignments (which their parents would no doubt do for them or farm out to professionals, if their parents were well-educated or rich). In many ways, the Chinese system is pretty good. What's not good is that 10 years ago, a degree in China meant the difference between slave labor, and a good secure job. Degrees have been devalued, and are now much easier to get. And "low skilled" work no longer means 12 hour days in dangerous environments on starvation wages - a semi-skilled worker in China can make more than a middle-class white-collar worker (though the conditions they work in are not enviable); while hordes of degree-holders compete for a small number of desirable office jobs. But, the attitudes of parents is still: "If you want to make anything of your life, you must get a degree. It's even more important than in my day - because now everyone is getting a degree".
- aik 15y ago
  >> There's plenty of empirical research that suggests "low level" mastery is all you really need for creative "high level" stuff. Is there any chance you could you please provide a citation for this? I'm very curious how that research was done and in what contexts. I'm of the belief that "low level" mastery can result in good creative outputs, but in a lot of cases it's a matter of luck as much as skill. The mastery in one area is supplemented by knowledge in other areas -- it's a sort of interdisciplinary approach to innovation that can have good outputs but I would think also come with a low level of guarantee of innovation and poorer repeatability (see young startup founders).
  - wisty 15y ago
    Looking for empirical research on education is difficult. Educationalists have decided that discovery learning is better, and they don't need to actually test it. Direct Instruction (the evil old-fashioned neo-colonial alternative) does tend to "win" in empirical studies, so they try to avoid doing anything remotely rigorous. Then they say that the studies weren't very good, because they didn't really test the higher level stuff - after all, you can't really test creativity. Both approaches might have their place, but the education establishment would rather win the argument than be right. Typical arts wankers. Here's one article. http://www.binder-riha.com/PT_DI.pdf http://www.binder-riha.com/PT_DI.pdf It took me ages to find much interesting - a google scholar search on "education" gets about 1.5 times the results as "education longitudinal", but if "direct instruction" gets about 10 times as many articles as "direct instruction longitudinal". Really, educationalists only pay lip service to empiricism. When they actually start comparing methodologies, they just use Sophistry as a methodology.
    - Turing_Machine 15y ago
      If you're really interested in this stuff, looking for some research that isn't 20 years old might be a good idea. Try this as a starting point: http://www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/hmelo_ep07.pdf http://www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/hmelo_ep07.pdf
tomjen3 15y ago
A part of me can't help but think that people like this would make excellent employees -- and lousy founders. Maybe we shouldn't fear China.
- shard 15y ago
  But the thing is, the brilliant founders that do emerge from China can readily tap into a much larger pool of capable employees than in the US, and they have over 4 times the population of the US.
  - tomjen3 15y ago
    Which brilliant founders (of tech companies) have emerged from China? They have a large number of businesses but you can study metallurgy and learn how to make steel but that doesn't make you the kind of person who can create something truely new.
    - mebe 15y ago
      They come to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Li http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Li
    - galuggus 15y ago
      Alibaba group douban Sina qq BYD innovative games payment systems group buying
    - wisty 15y ago
      What brilliant founders has the US produced in the last 10 years? Bugger all, except for Mark Zuckerberg, and a bunch who are not yet household names. China has only had a few years in which the average 20-something-year-old hacker had the resources to start a tech business. Even in China, many of the new tech businesses will not be famous yet. Also, China's capital tends to be directed to "made-in-China" manufacturing, where they have a huge advantage. That leaves high-tech startups choked for funds. How many New York startups can you name really fast?
erikb 15y ago
I saw that while staying in a Chinese university for one year. But my university was not a major, glorious, famous school, just a "good" one. I think these days it is not that extreme anymore. Chinese students actually have relationships, hobbies and friends. Just the ones who have to be the elite live in such an extreme environment. But that I think is the same for most countries. Especially the U.S. probably can't exclude themself from that (although it just what I think from watching US tv shows and movies, never went there). China changes very fast these days. If I go there in 2 years again, I think I will again already meet another country. And now (meaning starting the last months!) the change starts to be public driven and not government driven.
Hisoka 15y ago
I know many of these students are just slackers outside of the classroom. They remind me of employees who put in a lot of face time, but don't produce extraordinary results. I wonder how it must feel to go through all that hard work, then get placed at a job for the rest of your life, where your freedom is limited even more. Some reward, huh?

35 points by rblion 15y ago

"The gaokao rewards a special type of student: very strong memory; very strong logical and analytical ability; little imagination; little desire to question authority," says Jiang Xueqin, a Yale-educated school administrator in Beijing. "That person does well on the gaokao--as well as on the SAT, by the way."

cafard 15y ago
Sounds like the old German "Abitur". Americans thought the system deadly, but some remarkable minds came out of it OK, along with of course hordes who were merely competent.
- smcj 15y ago
  Not really. Unlike the US-style of multiple choice tests you are actually required to think, form an opinion, lay out considerations and cite facts (unless it is math). Teachers actually read the whole thing and grade you based on what you have written. That's why it can take a few weeks to get the results. Not comparable to multiple choice stuff, which can be corrected by every first-grader.

wisty 15y ago

There's plenty of empirical research that suggests "low level" mastery is all you really need for creative "high level" stuff. And I think sumative exams can be fairer (and possibly even kinder) than ongoing assessment. Imagine the corruption that would set in if schools were running tests every week, or worse, giving students assignments (which their parents would no doubt do for them or farm out to professionals, if their parents were well-educated or rich). In many ways, the Chinese system is pretty good. What's not good is that 10 years ago, a degree in China meant the difference between slave labor, and a good secure job. Degrees have been devalued, and are now much easier to get. And "low skilled" work no longer means 12 hour days in dangerous environments on starvation wages - a semi-skilled worker in China can make more than a middle-class white-collar worker (though the conditions they work in are not enviable); while hordes of degree-holders compete for a small number of desirable office jobs. But, the attitudes of parents is still: "If you want to make anything of your life, you must get a degree. It's even more important than in my day - because now everyone is getting a degree".

aik 15y ago
>> There's plenty of empirical research that suggests "low level" mastery is all you really need for creative "high level" stuff. Is there any chance you could you please provide a citation for this? I'm very curious how that research was done and in what contexts. I'm of the belief that "low level" mastery can result in good creative outputs, but in a lot of cases it's a matter of luck as much as skill. The mastery in one area is supplemented by knowledge in other areas -- it's a sort of interdisciplinary approach to innovation that can have good outputs but I would think also come with a low level of guarantee of innovation and poorer repeatability (see young startup founders).
- wisty 15y ago
  Looking for empirical research on education is difficult. Educationalists have decided that discovery learning is better, and they don't need to actually test it. Direct Instruction (the evil old-fashioned neo-colonial alternative) does tend to "win" in empirical studies, so they try to avoid doing anything remotely rigorous. Then they say that the studies weren't very good, because they didn't really test the higher level stuff - after all, you can't really test creativity. Both approaches might have their place, but the education establishment would rather win the argument than be right. Typical arts wankers. Here's one article. http://www.binder-riha.com/PT_DI.pdf http://www.binder-riha.com/PT_DI.pdf It took me ages to find much interesting - a google scholar search on "education" gets about 1.5 times the results as "education longitudinal", but if "direct instruction" gets about 10 times as many articles as "direct instruction longitudinal". Really, educationalists only pay lip service to empiricism. When they actually start comparing methodologies, they just use Sophistry as a methodology.
  - Turing_Machine 15y ago
    If you're really interested in this stuff, looking for some research that isn't 20 years old might be a good idea. Try this as a starting point: http://www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/hmelo_ep07.pdf http://www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/hmelo_ep07.pdf

tomjen3 15y ago

A part of me can't help but think that people like this would make excellent employees -- and lousy founders. Maybe we shouldn't fear China.

shard 15y ago
But the thing is, the brilliant founders that do emerge from China can readily tap into a much larger pool of capable employees than in the US, and they have over 4 times the population of the US.
- tomjen3 15y ago
  Which brilliant founders (of tech companies) have emerged from China? They have a large number of businesses but you can study metallurgy and learn how to make steel but that doesn't make you the kind of person who can create something truely new.
  - mebe 15y ago
    They come to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Li http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Li
  - galuggus 15y ago
    Alibaba group douban Sina qq BYD innovative games payment systems group buying
  - wisty 15y ago
    What brilliant founders has the US produced in the last 10 years? Bugger all, except for Mark Zuckerberg, and a bunch who are not yet household names. China has only had a few years in which the average 20-something-year-old hacker had the resources to start a tech business. Even in China, many of the new tech businesses will not be famous yet. Also, China's capital tends to be directed to "made-in-China" manufacturing, where they have a huge advantage. That leaves high-tech startups choked for funds. How many New York startups can you name really fast?

erikb 15y ago

I saw that while staying in a Chinese university for one year. But my university was not a major, glorious, famous school, just a "good" one. I think these days it is not that extreme anymore. Chinese students actually have relationships, hobbies and friends. Just the ones who have to be the elite live in such an extreme environment. But that I think is the same for most countries. Especially the U.S. probably can't exclude themself from that (although it just what I think from watching US tv shows and movies, never went there). China changes very fast these days. If I go there in 2 years again, I think I will again already meet another country. And now (meaning starting the last months!) the change starts to be public driven and not government driven.

Hisoka 15y ago

I know many of these students are just slackers outside of the classroom. They remind me of employees who put in a lot of face time, but don't produce extraordinary results. I wonder how it must feel to go through all that hard work, then get placed at a job for the rest of your life, where your freedom is limited even more. Some reward, huh?