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Baseline is a hard political requirement. The alternative is just turning people’s power off when there isn’t enough sunshine. Literally no electable party will

Baseline is a hard political requirement. The alternative is just turning people’s power off when there isn’t enough sunshine. Literally no electable party will make that choice; it’s electoral suicide. They’ll all choose to produce power with coal before they’ll choose to turn their citizens lights off.

pfdietz 5y ago
The grid could use intermittent sources + storage and the lights never need to go off. And it can be cheaper than coal (w. associated environmental costs) or nuclear, especially with projected cost declines.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Three comments. First, this is still baseline power, it’s just coming from batteries. The imperative to always keep the power on remains, but there are several ways to do it from an engineering perspective. Second, we’re not there yet. Until we have enough batteries to cover that, baseline will need to be provided by some other form of power generation. Currently this is natural gas (America) and coal (almost everywhere else). On the balance I think it would be best for us all if it was nuclear until we have enough grid level storage to make this discussion moot. Third, if you interpreted my comment as anti-renewables then you misread me. Renewables are great, I have them on my house, but it’s important to acknowledge that always keeping the power on is a political reality. We need to engineer around that requirement for now, and hopefully one day that’ll be trivial for renewables.
  - labawi 5y ago
    So .. if we plot the electricity demand curve, baseline would be a level line going through the (weekly) bottom of the curve. Baseline power is below the line and the rest is above, correct? Renewables and more specifically storage is not ready, so the part that is below base line is currently served by gas (and some coal/nuclear) and the part that is above is delivered by renewables without need for storage?
    - p_l 5y ago
      Yes. Baseline is essentially the line below which demand doesn't drop. A problem with renewables is that they still need storage to work as peakers, because in many places renewable production doesn't happen in peak times.
      - labawi 5y ago
        So, is below baseline powered by gas and coal? If so, why? Wouldn't it make more sense to cover as much as you can with renewables, including as much below and above the baseline, then cover the rest with gas for now and HVDC/storage/demand shifting/.. later? I.e. calculate demand - renewables. Cover that. Don't see the point of baseline.
        Jensson 5y ago
        You do realize that every country is already doing what you are suggesting? The point however is that unreliable renewables doesn't cover anything at all reliably, so you need reliable power to cover 100% of demand or you will have regular blackouts. You can achieve that by having enough battery storage to fuel the whole country for months to last the whole winter, or you build reliable power plants like nuclear, coal or gas. We aren't even close to having the battery solution even within decades, so the only alternative are the unrenewable power plants. And no, betting on a good winter isn't a solution. If those batteries runs out and large swathes of the country blacks out for months during a cold winter many will die. That is not a good solution.
        pfdietz 5y ago
        Using batteries to get renewables to 100% is bad systems engineering. It's cheaper to use something like hydrogen for the last 10-20%, and for seasonal load leveling.
        labawi 5y ago
        Yes, they do. If you notice, you have mentioned baseload, baseload power generation, baseload demand or base-anything exactly 0 times, because it has near 0 relevance, which is the point of the entire discussion.

pfdietz 5y ago

The grid could use intermittent sources + storage and the lights never need to go off. And it can be cheaper than coal (w. associated environmental costs) or nuclear, especially with projected cost declines.

ashtonkem 5y ago
Three comments. First, this is still baseline power, it’s just coming from batteries. The imperative to always keep the power on remains, but there are several ways to do it from an engineering perspective. Second, we’re not there yet. Until we have enough batteries to cover that, baseline will need to be provided by some other form of power generation. Currently this is natural gas (America) and coal (almost everywhere else). On the balance I think it would be best for us all if it was nuclear until we have enough grid level storage to make this discussion moot. Third, if you interpreted my comment as anti-renewables then you misread me. Renewables are great, I have them on my house, but it’s important to acknowledge that always keeping the power on is a political reality. We need to engineer around that requirement for now, and hopefully one day that’ll be trivial for renewables.
- labawi 5y ago
  So .. if we plot the electricity demand curve, baseline would be a level line going through the (weekly) bottom of the curve. Baseline power is below the line and the rest is above, correct? Renewables and more specifically storage is not ready, so the part that is below base line is currently served by gas (and some coal/nuclear) and the part that is above is delivered by renewables without need for storage?
  - p_l 5y ago
    Yes. Baseline is essentially the line below which demand doesn't drop. A problem with renewables is that they still need storage to work as peakers, because in many places renewable production doesn't happen in peak times.
    - labawi 5y ago
      So, is below baseline powered by gas and coal? If so, why? Wouldn't it make more sense to cover as much as you can with renewables, including as much below and above the baseline, then cover the rest with gas for now and HVDC/storage/demand shifting/.. later? I.e. calculate demand - renewables. Cover that. Don't see the point of baseline.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        You do realize that every country is already doing what you are suggesting? The point however is that unreliable renewables doesn't cover anything at all reliably, so you need reliable power to cover 100% of demand or you will have regular blackouts. You can achieve that by having enough battery storage to fuel the whole country for months to last the whole winter, or you build reliable power plants like nuclear, coal or gas. We aren't even close to having the battery solution even within decades, so the only alternative are the unrenewable power plants. And no, betting on a good winter isn't a solution. If those batteries runs out and large swathes of the country blacks out for months during a cold winter many will die. That is not a good solution.
        pfdietz 5y ago
        Using batteries to get renewables to 100% is bad systems engineering. It's cheaper to use something like hydrogen for the last 10-20%, and for seasonal load leveling.
        labawi 5y ago
        Yes, they do. If you notice, you have mentioned baseload, baseload power generation, baseload demand or base-anything exactly 0 times, because it has near 0 relevance, which is the point of the entire discussion.