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This topic is an absolute minefield to navigate. But is there any hard, reliable evidence that these preferences are driven by upbringing and not something more

This topic is an absolute minefield to navigate. But is there any hard, reliable evidence that these preferences are driven by upbringing and not something more innate? And do we really need to be paying as much attention to this gap as we are? I haven't heard a compelling argument for why every sector needs a 50/50 gender divide.

klipt 5y ago
There's definitely some social component. For example there are way more women in STEM in China, Russia and Eastern Europe than in Western countries. Since these days we're calling harmful gender stereotypes that affect men "toxic masculinity", I vote we call the stereotype that women can't do STEM "toxic femininity". It's time for society to fight against this toxic femininity.
- mlboss 5y ago
  It is little counterintuitive but countries with more gender inequality have more women in STEM. In developing countries where more preferential treatment is given to males having a STEM degree give lot of power to women. I don’t understand why can’t the society accept that men love machines/code. Most of the women do not enjoy this stuff(which is fine). Gender equality paradox: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/gender-equali...
  - david38 5y ago
    Countries which have large differences between the living standards of rich and poor is another way to frame it. If you are in India, where the difference between poor and rich is enormous then you will likely do anything for a high paying job, even if you don’t particularly like it. My Indian friends tell me about this all the time. Getting into tech is seen as a lifeboat, so don’t complain, just do anything under the sun to get there. So of course, if you are a woman, if you can do STEM, you will. Some will enjoy it, others see it as the way to not live as unprotected lower class. In a country like Sweden, where “poor” isn’t “poor like in India”, there is far less incentive. In a country like this, women can study more what perks their interest. Here you see a deep divide in men dominating jobs to do with “things” and women dominating jobs to do with “people”.
    - bjourne 5y ago
      > So of course, if you are a woman, if you can do STEM, you will. Some will enjoy it, others see it as the way to not live as unprotected lower class. And how does these life choices of these Indian women differ from the life choices of the Indian men? Do they all do STEM only because they enjoy it so much? Seems like you are speculating about a subject you don't know much about.
rytcio 5y ago
> I haven't heard a compelling argument for why every sector needs a 50/50 gender divide. It's secretly about increasing the available labor so that salaries can be lower
- debesyla 5y ago
  Isn't it about having an equal amount of input during the development of products?
  - klipt 5y ago
    That's an interesting argument, but surely it applies even more to the development of children? In which case having 90% of teachers being women could be very harmful for the development of the next generation.
xondono 5y ago
> is there any hard, reliable evidence that these preferences are driven by upbringing and not something more innate? No, but it’s the default assumption for most people in the field. > haven't heard a compelling argument for why every sector needs a 50/50 gender divide. The argument tends to follow from the first assumption, if all preferences are learned, in a perfectly unbiased world you’d see random preferences, so most fields would be 50/50.

klipt 5y ago

There's definitely some social component. For example there are way more women in STEM in China, Russia and Eastern Europe than in Western countries. Since these days we're calling harmful gender stereotypes that affect men "toxic masculinity", I vote we call the stereotype that women can't do STEM "toxic femininity". It's time for society to fight against this toxic femininity.

mlboss 5y ago
It is little counterintuitive but countries with more gender inequality have more women in STEM. In developing countries where more preferential treatment is given to males having a STEM degree give lot of power to women. I don’t understand why can’t the society accept that men love machines/code. Most of the women do not enjoy this stuff(which is fine). Gender equality paradox: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/gender-equali...
- david38 5y ago
  Countries which have large differences between the living standards of rich and poor is another way to frame it. If you are in India, where the difference between poor and rich is enormous then you will likely do anything for a high paying job, even if you don’t particularly like it. My Indian friends tell me about this all the time. Getting into tech is seen as a lifeboat, so don’t complain, just do anything under the sun to get there. So of course, if you are a woman, if you can do STEM, you will. Some will enjoy it, others see it as the way to not live as unprotected lower class. In a country like Sweden, where “poor” isn’t “poor like in India”, there is far less incentive. In a country like this, women can study more what perks their interest. Here you see a deep divide in men dominating jobs to do with “things” and women dominating jobs to do with “people”.
  - bjourne 5y ago
    > So of course, if you are a woman, if you can do STEM, you will. Some will enjoy it, others see it as the way to not live as unprotected lower class. And how does these life choices of these Indian women differ from the life choices of the Indian men? Do they all do STEM only because they enjoy it so much? Seems like you are speculating about a subject you don't know much about.

rytcio 5y ago

> I haven't heard a compelling argument for why every sector needs a 50/50 gender divide. It's secretly about increasing the available labor so that salaries can be lower

debesyla 5y ago
Isn't it about having an equal amount of input during the development of products?
- klipt 5y ago
  That's an interesting argument, but surely it applies even more to the development of children? In which case having 90% of teachers being women could be very harmful for the development of the next generation.

xondono 5y ago

> is there any hard, reliable evidence that these preferences are driven by upbringing and not something more innate? No, but it’s the default assumption for most people in the field. > haven't heard a compelling argument for why every sector needs a 50/50 gender divide. The argument tends to follow from the first assumption, if all preferences are learned, in a perfectly unbiased world you’d see random preferences, so most fields would be 50/50.