3 ms·

Your reinterpreted definition is misleading. If you have enough generation to serve baseload, you have enough to power a single instant over a week. You need to

by labawi 5y ago

Your reinterpreted definition is misleading. If you have enough generation to serve baseload, you have enough to power a single instant over a week. You need to serve the entire load. Please read the article you linked more carefully. It even has a nice graph with an informative title: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Renewables_need_flexible_backup_not_baseload.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Renewables_need_flexible_... Germany may be importing energy, but more baseload generation is only one solution, and probably not even a particularly efficient one - you'd have a lot of leftover energy in peak times.

heurisko 5y ago
I elided a few words from the Wikipedia article, it is: The baseload[1] (also base load) on a grid is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week. It was unintentional to reinterpret the original sentence. If I were to clarify my original comment, it would be to add I was referring to the concept "baseload/baseline demand", not "baseload generators". It's true you don't need baseload generators to meet the baseload demand. My point was, as in the graph, Germany hasn't provided flexible backup to their renewables. They've relied on baseload nuclear generators from France being the backup.
- labawi 5y ago
  I have issue with this: > .. you need to provide to meet demand .. To put it bluntly, if you have enough to power baseload, you have nothing, except maybe pitchforks in your face. WRT baseload demand, I don't see how it's relevant to pretty much anything. Baseload power - I don't see how one would use it as a backup, unless you're throwing energy away, or it's variable, hence not baseload.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    > To put it bluntly, if you have enough to power baseload, you have nothing, except maybe pitchforks in your face. I don't know what you are saying here. > WRT baseload demand, I don't see how it's relevant to pretty much anything. The concept is relevant as renewables cannot currently provide baseload power demand without infrastructure that hasn't been built yet, ie. storage and interconnects. > Baseload power - I don't see how one would use it as a backup, unless you're throwing energy away, or it's variable, hence not baseload. Throughout this thread, you have continued to ignore that I have explained baseload power demand and baseload power generators are not the same concept. Baseload power generators, as the Wiki article mentioned, traditionally provided baseload power demand, but there's no reason why baseload power demand needs to be met by baseload generators. Variable generators can provide baseload power demand: Historically, most or all of baseload demand was met with baseload power plants, whereas new capacity based around renewables often employs flexible generation instead.[1] "Baseload" is not shorthand for "baseload generator", but rather used to describe the minimum demand you need to meet without the lights going out. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load
    - labawi 5y ago
      > "Baseload" is ... minimum demand you need to meet without the lights going out. No. You need to meet all of the demand or you get blackouts / curtailment / power goes out. The least and smallest of the demand over a week is baseload. If you can only provide that, then you will have blackouts all of the time. And pitchforks in your face. > [Germany] relied on baseload nuclear generators from France being the backup. Baseload generators are pretty much fixed output (otherwise they wouldn't be called baseload generators). In what clever way do you expect to use a fixed output generator as a backup for your variable output generator?

by labawi 5y ago

heurisko 5y ago

I elided a few words from the Wikipedia article, it is: The baseload[1] (also base load) on a grid is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week. It was unintentional to reinterpret the original sentence. If I were to clarify my original comment, it would be to add I was referring to the concept "baseload/baseline demand", not "baseload generators". It's true you don't need baseload generators to meet the baseload demand. My point was, as in the graph, Germany hasn't provided flexible backup to their renewables. They've relied on baseload nuclear generators from France being the backup.

labawi 5y ago
I have issue with this: > .. you need to provide to meet demand .. To put it bluntly, if you have enough to power baseload, you have nothing, except maybe pitchforks in your face. WRT baseload demand, I don't see how it's relevant to pretty much anything. Baseload power - I don't see how one would use it as a backup, unless you're throwing energy away, or it's variable, hence not baseload.
- heurisko 5y ago
  > To put it bluntly, if you have enough to power baseload, you have nothing, except maybe pitchforks in your face. I don't know what you are saying here. > WRT baseload demand, I don't see how it's relevant to pretty much anything. The concept is relevant as renewables cannot currently provide baseload power demand without infrastructure that hasn't been built yet, ie. storage and interconnects. > Baseload power - I don't see how one would use it as a backup, unless you're throwing energy away, or it's variable, hence not baseload. Throughout this thread, you have continued to ignore that I have explained baseload power demand and baseload power generators are not the same concept. Baseload power generators, as the Wiki article mentioned, traditionally provided baseload power demand, but there's no reason why baseload power demand needs to be met by baseload generators. Variable generators can provide baseload power demand: Historically, most or all of baseload demand was met with baseload power plants, whereas new capacity based around renewables often employs flexible generation instead.[1] "Baseload" is not shorthand for "baseload generator", but rather used to describe the minimum demand you need to meet without the lights going out. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load
  - labawi 5y ago
    > "Baseload" is ... minimum demand you need to meet without the lights going out. No. You need to meet all of the demand or you get blackouts / curtailment / power goes out. The least and smallest of the demand over a week is baseload. If you can only provide that, then you will have blackouts all of the time. And pitchforks in your face. > [Germany] relied on baseload nuclear generators from France being the backup. Baseload generators are pretty much fixed output (otherwise they wouldn't be called baseload generators). In what clever way do you expect to use a fixed output generator as a backup for your variable output generator?