5 ms·

Context - a UK MP has just been killed by a constituent at a regular 'meet the MP' incident. This type of attack happened in 2016 when another MP was killed, i

Context - a UK MP has just been killed by a constituent at a regular 'meet the MP' incident. This type of attack happened in 2016 when another MP was killed, in 2010 when it was an attempted murder (the MP survived), in 2000 (MP severely injured, his assistant was killed). Before that there was the attack on the entire government at the party conference in 1984 by the IRA which killed 5 (including one MP), and assassination of the Northern Ireland secretary in 1979.

jodrellblank 5y ago
If only their response to 72 poor people dying in the Grenfell Tower fire was as swift and wide-reaching as their response to a millionaire Conservative MP being stabbed.
- dash2 5y ago
  There’s been a very serious public enquiry about that. (There’s also now been a policy response.) Do you think the issues of Grenfell could have been solved by immediate action? I think an enquiry to figure out what went wrong was necessary. You also seem to think there’s been a swift, wide reaching response to the MP’s murder. I’m not sure what that is, since this policy proposal has merely been mooted.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    For example, nothing was done to replace similar cladding found in hundreds of other high-rise buildings. Or with similar, deadly fire hazard risks found in older council buildings. Or rather, not nothing. Live human watchmen are patrolling hundreds of buildings and will wake everyone up in case there’s a fire; because there are no fire alarms and if a fire does break out, you have no time to spare at all. Oh and the residents have to pay for this. But the people who built these, designed them, accepted as safe, or indeed set the regulation, that’s all fine. https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/waking-watches-the-scale-of-englands-building-safety-crisis-unveiled-65882 https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/waking-watch...
    - CheezeIt 5y ago
      It sounds like the residents should move out.
      - rich_sasha 5y ago
        That’s the kicker. These flats legally cannot be sold because they are unsafe! Not rented out. So unless you can afford to abandon them, there’s no option but to pray and stay. Heck, you might be paying a mortgage on it! Of course if you are a council house renter, as many inhabitants are, then you can’t move out anyway, you’re there because you have no other options.
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    Sir David Armess was stabbed midday Friday, there was a preliminary investigation, two buildings searched, a suspect aprehended, it was declared an act of terrorism, and the Home Secretary is talking about a nation-affecting policy change, all by ~midday Sunday; two days, mostly weekend. Grenfell Tower burned on June 14th 2017, we're now four years, a general election, a different Prime Minister and a long public enquiry after it. There is quite a difference there which "immediate" glosses over. Is there no need for an enquiry to figure out what went wrong in this situation? Is there no need to discuss it in the House of Commons this next week before suggesting what to do about it? Do you suspect, as I do, that the connection between between social media anonymity and murderous acts of terrorism is more complex and less clear-cut than the connection between fire safety regulations and building fire risk? Here[1] is the Director of Policy at the British Safety Council commenting "Even allowing for the tardiness of statute and government process, two years on from the catastrophic events of Grenfell, the lack of tangible change to the underlying root causes and systemic failures is quite frankly lamentable." and that was in 2019, two years after it and now two years ago. Edit: My original comment was too snarky and politically aggressive for the HN guidelines, and it is the case that there were £200M allocated for building improvements and that a huge police investigation takes time and charges of corporate manslaughter may still be brought in due time. [1] https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2019/post-grenfell-where-are-the-changes/ https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-maga...
DizzyDoo 5y ago
There was also Ian Gow MP who was assassinated with a car bomb by the IRA in 1990.
pjc50 5y ago
Is there any evidence that the attack was in any way linked to internet anonymity, or is this just the usual suspects bringing out their authoritarian policy using this as a pretext? (Details seem to be scarce because it's sub judice, but presumably US media might have something?)
- Pyramus 5y ago
  > And Ms Patel indicated she is considering going a step further by requiring sites such as Facebook or Twitter to retain details of the identities of people posting material which could be handed over to police investigating crimes. I don't see how social media anonymity == internet anonymity?
  - thr0wawayf00 5y ago
    I have a feeling this will hit the same wall that US law enforcement found as school shootings started taking off here. This will generate tons of noise for law enforcement that they cannot effectively find the true signals of those intending to commit violence as opposed to those that are just angry and like to vent online. There are just too many people posting angry stuff on social media these days to find the actually violent people. Whenever horrific school shootings happen, the media immediately looks at the attacker's social media and wonders why law enforcement didn't catch them ahead of time; this is why. And since a crime hasn't yet been committed, there isn't much law enforcement can do to obtain a warrant (at least up until now). And even if they find someone that they suspect might commit a crime, they can't just hold that person indefinitely. They either need to have enough evidence to prosecute or let the target go. Suggestions like this don't actually solve the problem, they just shift the blame elsewhere.
    - Pyramus 5y ago
      I see your point re noise - the case here is a lot simpler I believe: Being able to prosecute effectively anonymous death threats (which is a criminal offence in most jurisdictions) made via social media. While not trivial it is fairly straightforward to get an anonymous e.g. FB account and a VPN and you are practically invisible to law enforcement. I suspect you don't even need the VPN for less serious offences.
mongol 5y ago
That is indeed a lot of political murders / murder attempts. More than I would have guessed if someone asked me. Thanks for the history lesson.

jodrellblank 5y ago

If only their response to 72 poor people dying in the Grenfell Tower fire was as swift and wide-reaching as their response to a millionaire Conservative MP being stabbed.

dash2 5y ago
There’s been a very serious public enquiry about that. (There’s also now been a policy response.) Do you think the issues of Grenfell could have been solved by immediate action? I think an enquiry to figure out what went wrong was necessary. You also seem to think there’s been a swift, wide reaching response to the MP’s murder. I’m not sure what that is, since this policy proposal has merely been mooted.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  For example, nothing was done to replace similar cladding found in hundreds of other high-rise buildings. Or with similar, deadly fire hazard risks found in older council buildings. Or rather, not nothing. Live human watchmen are patrolling hundreds of buildings and will wake everyone up in case there’s a fire; because there are no fire alarms and if a fire does break out, you have no time to spare at all. Oh and the residents have to pay for this. But the people who built these, designed them, accepted as safe, or indeed set the regulation, that’s all fine. https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/waking-watches-the-scale-of-englands-building-safety-crisis-unveiled-65882 https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/waking-watch...
  - CheezeIt 5y ago
    It sounds like the residents should move out.
    - rich_sasha 5y ago
      That’s the kicker. These flats legally cannot be sold because they are unsafe! Not rented out. So unless you can afford to abandon them, there’s no option but to pray and stay. Heck, you might be paying a mortgage on it! Of course if you are a council house renter, as many inhabitants are, then you can’t move out anyway, you’re there because you have no other options.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  Sir David Armess was stabbed midday Friday, there was a preliminary investigation, two buildings searched, a suspect aprehended, it was declared an act of terrorism, and the Home Secretary is talking about a nation-affecting policy change, all by ~midday Sunday; two days, mostly weekend. Grenfell Tower burned on June 14th 2017, we're now four years, a general election, a different Prime Minister and a long public enquiry after it. There is quite a difference there which "immediate" glosses over. Is there no need for an enquiry to figure out what went wrong in this situation? Is there no need to discuss it in the House of Commons this next week before suggesting what to do about it? Do you suspect, as I do, that the connection between between social media anonymity and murderous acts of terrorism is more complex and less clear-cut than the connection between fire safety regulations and building fire risk? Here[1] is the Director of Policy at the British Safety Council commenting "Even allowing for the tardiness of statute and government process, two years on from the catastrophic events of Grenfell, the lack of tangible change to the underlying root causes and systemic failures is quite frankly lamentable." and that was in 2019, two years after it and now two years ago. Edit: My original comment was too snarky and politically aggressive for the HN guidelines, and it is the case that there were £200M allocated for building improvements and that a huge police investigation takes time and charges of corporate manslaughter may still be brought in due time. [1] https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2019/post-grenfell-where-are-the-changes/ https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-maga...

DizzyDoo 5y ago

There was also Ian Gow MP who was assassinated with a car bomb by the IRA in 1990.

pjc50 5y ago

Is there any evidence that the attack was in any way linked to internet anonymity, or is this just the usual suspects bringing out their authoritarian policy using this as a pretext? (Details seem to be scarce because it's sub judice, but presumably US media might have something?)

Pyramus 5y ago
> And Ms Patel indicated she is considering going a step further by requiring sites such as Facebook or Twitter to retain details of the identities of people posting material which could be handed over to police investigating crimes. I don't see how social media anonymity == internet anonymity?
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  I have a feeling this will hit the same wall that US law enforcement found as school shootings started taking off here. This will generate tons of noise for law enforcement that they cannot effectively find the true signals of those intending to commit violence as opposed to those that are just angry and like to vent online. There are just too many people posting angry stuff on social media these days to find the actually violent people. Whenever horrific school shootings happen, the media immediately looks at the attacker's social media and wonders why law enforcement didn't catch them ahead of time; this is why. And since a crime hasn't yet been committed, there isn't much law enforcement can do to obtain a warrant (at least up until now). And even if they find someone that they suspect might commit a crime, they can't just hold that person indefinitely. They either need to have enough evidence to prosecute or let the target go. Suggestions like this don't actually solve the problem, they just shift the blame elsewhere.
  - Pyramus 5y ago
    I see your point re noise - the case here is a lot simpler I believe: Being able to prosecute effectively anonymous death threats (which is a criminal offence in most jurisdictions) made via social media. While not trivial it is fairly straightforward to get an anonymous e.g. FB account and a VPN and you are practically invisible to law enforcement. I suspect you don't even need the VPN for less serious offences.

mongol 5y ago

That is indeed a lot of political murders / murder attempts. More than I would have guessed if someone asked me. Thanks for the history lesson.