4 ms·

Cisco Sued By Chinese Political Prisoners Over 'Golden Shield'

57 points by dools 15y ago

Hyena 15y ago
How do these suits work? Presumably, Cisco has done nothing wrong in China and therefore isn't liable.
- keane 15y ago
  ATCA - https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alien_Tort_Statute https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alien_Tort_St...
ars 15y ago
Flagged for utterly inaccurate title! They are being sued for creating free-speech blocking, and people tracking, technology. Jailing and torture may have been done by the Chinese, but it has nothing to do with CISCO - not even indirectly. Submitter did you even read your own article? Not even the people filing the suit are claiming that. And I quote: "They aren't just selling routers to a corrupt regime. They are selling the technology, training and software specifically designed to monitor, censor and suppress the Chinese people," said Mr Ward. "And they are doing so knowing full well how the CCP treats dissenters."
- dools 15y ago
  The title of the article is "Fighting China's Golden Shield: Cisco sued over jailing and torture of dissidents". The HN submit tool wants < 80 characters, I figured that "Cisco sued over jailing and torture of dissidents" is more informative than "Fighting China's Golden Shield". I've been warned before by pg about "editorialising in the title" so I reused the title of the article verbatim. If you have a problem with that, take it up with pg
  - ars 15y ago
    The title is: Cisco Sued By Chinese Political Prisoners Over 'Golden Shield' It seems to have a second title though, but the first one is much more accurate.
    - dools 15y ago
      I've updated the title to be the title of the target page now, rather than the "headline" (I guess that's what you'd call it).
  - jgamman 15y ago
    i believe the intent is to make the title as informative as possible for the audience - not just to C&P the one given ie, the guidelines state something like "don't post 'top-10 ways to do foo', better to change title to something like "10 ways to do foo (2 of which are smart)" or similar. <personal>C&P'ing some-else's linkbait is just as unethical and disrespectful to the community as writing your own...
- dpatru 15y ago
  If a person asks you to help them rob a bank, and you provide them with transportation to the bank, you're going to be found guilty as an accessory and you'll be punished the same as the bank robber.[1] Here Cisco knew why China wanted its help, in fact, in at least one sales presentation Cisco has the bullet point: "Combat 'Falun Gong' evil religion and other hostiles." It's well known since "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"[2] how Communists treat religious and political dissidents. So Cisco is being sued for the torture of political prisoners. They provided the technology used to capture these people knowing that they would be tortured after. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)#England_and_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)#England_... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Denisovich http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Den...
alanh 15y ago
Complicit = guilty
suprgeek 15y ago
Kinda paints a rather troubling picture of one of the biggest tech companies in USA. Also, Cisco intimidation tactics: http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/cisco-resorting-intimidation-tactics http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/cisco-resorting-i... A pound of flesh: how Cisco's "unmitigated gall" derailed one man's life:http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-flesh-how-ciscos-unmitigated-gall-derailed-one-mans-life.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-f...
- sixtofour 15y ago
  Every billion dollar company is capable of this and more. A billion dollars changes people. You can watch it play out year after year over a lifetime.
  - Joakal 15y ago
    Warren Buffett too, despite the positive reception to his altruistic political suggestions by others on HN?
Shenglong 15y ago
Every time I read one of these anti-China articles, I secretly chuckle at how I've never once met a Chinese citizen who has felt oppressed, in China. The chuckling goes a step further when someone inevitably responds, "they just don't know they're being oppressed!" Yeah, there are a few cases that are less-than-acceptable by our standards, but what do these people expect, when they try to cause a Cultural Revolution 2.0? Anyway, back on topic: I can't imagine Cisco losing this case. They're competing in a market, and not trying to torture people, or enable it. If they win, essentially any company providing supplies to China could be considered aiding in torture. Ridiculous.
- dools 15y ago
  "I secretly chuckle at how I've never once met a Chinese citizen who has felt oppressed, in China" When John Howard was re-elected in 2004 I spoke to everyone I could and didn't find one person who voted Liberal (probably because I lived in the Inner West of Sydney). The point being you can't necessarily take your personal experience as being representative of any sizable population.
- jseliger 15y ago
  If you're interested in the most sophisticated discussion I've seen about the paradoxical nature China's political repression / freedom, take a look at James Fallows' book Postcards from Tomorrow Square: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0307456242?ie=UTF8&tag=thstsst-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0307456242?ie=UTF8&#3... . Most of the people with your perspective and most of the people writing "anti-China" articles are half right.
- naner 15y ago
  I've never once met a Chinese citizen who has felt oppressed Same could be said about NK.
  - wisty 15y ago
    That was probably true a decade ago, as North Koreans were effectively brainwashed. That's been changing, due to obsolete Chinese media devices getting smuggled across the border, which North Koreans buy on the blackmarket (along with other illegal stuff like, um, food). They share South Korean TV shows, and start to ask questions. Chinese generally know what is going on in their country. They are often pretty blunt about not liking the government. But they don't generally feel oppressed, as the government only cracks down on stuff that's an existential threat to them. Try to overthrow them, and you will get oppressed. But otherwise, the government tends to be quite liberal. OK, the government does hold huge amounts of land, which is an invisible kind of tax. They also have high taxes, on the people who pay tax. And low interest rates, and controls on banks lets them create other invisible taxes. There's also a big difference between the rules, and what is regularly enforced, so people think they are very hands off, when they can be officious pricks at times. And criminals - drug dealers, thieves, etc. are punished very severely. But really, look at a street in China, and a street in the USA. See which one looks "freer".
est 15y ago
In a previous GFW internal disclosure, most of GFW devices are actually from Huawei and ZTE. GFW is a national defence project from the start, there was a Taiwanese spy intel leak that was successfully intercepted by GFW few years ago, which leads to decline of ISBase and rise of VenusTech. VenusTech is currently de facto operative company of GFW. People of Fa1un Gong has tried to sue Cisco for years over Golden Shield project, which what they meant to sue is GFW. The funny thing is, GFW project has totally nothing to do with Golden Shield project. They are totally different projects run by different government divisions.
spartyfan10 15y ago
While this is definitely pretty crappy of Cisco to do, it also doesn't seem illegal. Working with the Chinese to block peoples' freedom isn't something the US legal system has any jurisdiction over. Cisco was simply turning profit on a very un-American project.
- keane 15y ago
  That's actually not true. See ATCA.

57 points by dools 15y ago

Hyena 15y ago

How do these suits work? Presumably, Cisco has done nothing wrong in China and therefore isn't liable.

keane 15y ago
ATCA - https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alien_Tort_Statute https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alien_Tort_St...

ars 15y ago

Flagged for utterly inaccurate title! They are being sued for creating free-speech blocking, and people tracking, technology. Jailing and torture may have been done by the Chinese, but it has nothing to do with CISCO - not even indirectly. Submitter did you even read your own article? Not even the people filing the suit are claiming that. And I quote: "They aren't just selling routers to a corrupt regime. They are selling the technology, training and software specifically designed to monitor, censor and suppress the Chinese people," said Mr Ward. "And they are doing so knowing full well how the CCP treats dissenters."

dools 15y ago
The title of the article is "Fighting China's Golden Shield: Cisco sued over jailing and torture of dissidents". The HN submit tool wants < 80 characters, I figured that "Cisco sued over jailing and torture of dissidents" is more informative than "Fighting China's Golden Shield". I've been warned before by pg about "editorialising in the title" so I reused the title of the article verbatim. If you have a problem with that, take it up with pg
- ars 15y ago
  The title is: Cisco Sued By Chinese Political Prisoners Over 'Golden Shield' It seems to have a second title though, but the first one is much more accurate.
  - dools 15y ago
    I've updated the title to be the title of the target page now, rather than the "headline" (I guess that's what you'd call it).
- jgamman 15y ago
  i believe the intent is to make the title as informative as possible for the audience - not just to C&P the one given ie, the guidelines state something like "don't post 'top-10 ways to do foo', better to change title to something like "10 ways to do foo (2 of which are smart)" or similar. <personal>C&P'ing some-else's linkbait is just as unethical and disrespectful to the community as writing your own...
dpatru 15y ago
If a person asks you to help them rob a bank, and you provide them with transportation to the bank, you're going to be found guilty as an accessory and you'll be punished the same as the bank robber.[1] Here Cisco knew why China wanted its help, in fact, in at least one sales presentation Cisco has the bullet point: "Combat 'Falun Gong' evil religion and other hostiles." It's well known since "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"[2] how Communists treat religious and political dissidents. So Cisco is being sued for the torture of political prisoners. They provided the technology used to capture these people knowing that they would be tortured after. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)#England_and_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)#England_... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Denisovich http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Den...

alanh 15y ago

Complicit = guilty

suprgeek 15y ago

Kinda paints a rather troubling picture of one of the biggest tech companies in USA. Also, Cisco intimidation tactics: http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/cisco-resorting-intimidation-tactics http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/cisco-resorting-i... A pound of flesh: how Cisco's "unmitigated gall" derailed one man's life:http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-flesh-how-ciscos-unmitigated-gall-derailed-one-mans-life.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-f...

sixtofour 15y ago
Every billion dollar company is capable of this and more. A billion dollars changes people. You can watch it play out year after year over a lifetime.
- Joakal 15y ago
  Warren Buffett too, despite the positive reception to his altruistic political suggestions by others on HN?

Shenglong 15y ago

Every time I read one of these anti-China articles, I secretly chuckle at how I've never once met a Chinese citizen who has felt oppressed, in China. The chuckling goes a step further when someone inevitably responds, "they just don't know they're being oppressed!" Yeah, there are a few cases that are less-than-acceptable by our standards, but what do these people expect, when they try to cause a Cultural Revolution 2.0? Anyway, back on topic: I can't imagine Cisco losing this case. They're competing in a market, and not trying to torture people, or enable it. If they win, essentially any company providing supplies to China could be considered aiding in torture. Ridiculous.

dools 15y ago
"I secretly chuckle at how I've never once met a Chinese citizen who has felt oppressed, in China" When John Howard was re-elected in 2004 I spoke to everyone I could and didn't find one person who voted Liberal (probably because I lived in the Inner West of Sydney). The point being you can't necessarily take your personal experience as being representative of any sizable population.
jseliger 15y ago
If you're interested in the most sophisticated discussion I've seen about the paradoxical nature China's political repression / freedom, take a look at James Fallows' book Postcards from Tomorrow Square: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0307456242?ie=UTF8&tag=thstsst-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0307456242?ie=UTF8&#3... . Most of the people with your perspective and most of the people writing "anti-China" articles are half right.
naner 15y ago
I've never once met a Chinese citizen who has felt oppressed Same could be said about NK.
- wisty 15y ago
  That was probably true a decade ago, as North Koreans were effectively brainwashed. That's been changing, due to obsolete Chinese media devices getting smuggled across the border, which North Koreans buy on the blackmarket (along with other illegal stuff like, um, food). They share South Korean TV shows, and start to ask questions. Chinese generally know what is going on in their country. They are often pretty blunt about not liking the government. But they don't generally feel oppressed, as the government only cracks down on stuff that's an existential threat to them. Try to overthrow them, and you will get oppressed. But otherwise, the government tends to be quite liberal. OK, the government does hold huge amounts of land, which is an invisible kind of tax. They also have high taxes, on the people who pay tax. And low interest rates, and controls on banks lets them create other invisible taxes. There's also a big difference between the rules, and what is regularly enforced, so people think they are very hands off, when they can be officious pricks at times. And criminals - drug dealers, thieves, etc. are punished very severely. But really, look at a street in China, and a street in the USA. See which one looks "freer".

est 15y ago

In a previous GFW internal disclosure, most of GFW devices are actually from Huawei and ZTE. GFW is a national defence project from the start, there was a Taiwanese spy intel leak that was successfully intercepted by GFW few years ago, which leads to decline of ISBase and rise of VenusTech. VenusTech is currently de facto operative company of GFW. People of Fa1un Gong has tried to sue Cisco for years over Golden Shield project, which what they meant to sue is GFW. The funny thing is, GFW project has totally nothing to do with Golden Shield project. They are totally different projects run by different government divisions.

spartyfan10 15y ago

While this is definitely pretty crappy of Cisco to do, it also doesn't seem illegal. Working with the Chinese to block peoples' freedom isn't something the US legal system has any jurisdiction over. Cisco was simply turning profit on a very un-American project.

keane 15y ago
That's actually not true. See ATCA.