7 ms·

Selective abortion in India could lead to 6.8m fewer girls being born by 2030

20 points by 1cvmask 5y ago

28194608 5y ago
This is huge even though there's law against gender determination in India. Unless people are educated or dowries are strictly made illegal this can't be stopped.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  People perform abortions for a myriad of reasons in societies where it is legal. Preference for a gender over another seems like just another reason on an individual basis. On a societal basis where most people commit abortion for the same reason seems like it will have big repercussions down the road. I wonder if anyone has tried to model economic, business, societal and cultural outcomes of this. Will it even change TV shows or movies? This seems like an interesting A/B test of societies around the world. In history there used to be a male deficit in many societies after wars. I don't remember seeing many specific studies on that.
- naruvimama 5y ago
  "Dowry" is conflated, while dowry itself isn't an Indian term, in the Indian context it is often jewellery given to the bride by her parents often in lieu of her share of property. A witch hunt against this practice has actually worked against the women, and many are deprived of their ancestral property rights. A lot of women in Europe aren't even aware of their property rights, the first son generally gets the farm and the daughters get nothing (even if the farm is ancestral).
jwond 5y ago
Having a shortage of women (or excess of men) that leaves many men no hope of finding a woman to marry seems like it will not be good for the stability of society.
nonamechicken 5y ago
Not trying to dismiss the issue here. But I find this part of the article really ironic: > Academics from King Abdullah University of Science and Technology in Saudi Arabia projected the sex ratio at birth in 29 Indian states and union territories, covering almost the entire population, taking into account each state’s desired sex ratio at birth and the population’s fertility rates. > The study, published in the journal Plos One this week, called for strengthened policies that “advocate for gender equity and the introduction of support measures to counteract existing gender biases”. Saudis are commenting about Indians on gender equality!
- _8j50 5y ago
  No, academics are publishing research regarding a social issue in india. Why does it matter who they are? Let's say it does, are you saying Saudis abort girls similar to india or are you saying women's rights being considered bad relative to the west means saudis hate women, even their mothers and sisters? Perhaps you forget how recent women's right to vote and divorce is even in the west. Or maybe you think all the recent reforms regarding women's right in Saudi (they can finally travel on their own and drive) was thanks to western influence? Either way, ad-hominem against an academic work is not good in my opinion
  - 1cvmask 5y ago
    Majority of the faculty and academics in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries used to be foreigners till the early 2000s at many of those research universities. I don't know what the percentage is today. It seems that almost all the faculty in Qatar (which 1-2 decades behind Saudi Arabia in becoming "overnight" wealthy) are non-Qatari for the Georgetown Qatar University: https://www.qatar.georgetown.edu/people/ https://www.qatar.georgetown.edu/people/
  - nonamechicken 5y ago
    I don't see them as academics, but rather propagandists. I am wondering what exactly does this study achieve? The sex selective abortion issue in India is not a new thing. It has been studied a lot since the last 30 years (one of the first law banning gender determination was enacted in 1994). So I fail to understand what is the point of doing it again in 2020, when they could use that time to study something more useful. Also, its not like people in India doesn't know this is an issue. India already has laws banning gender determination before birth. There are big notices plastered everywhere in the waiting rooms and inside the (ultrasound) scanning centers that says that "sex determination is illegal, and punishable with so and so jail term and fines". Because of the laws, only time people would find out about the gender is when the nurse brings the baby outside for everyone to see after birth. This is one of the guidelines for scanning centres: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498636/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498636/ >There should be a board, prominently displayed, with the message in English and the local language that ‘sex selection and detection is not done in this Centre and is punishable under the PC-PNDT Act’. This should be displayed in the waiting area and the USG room. No specific size for the message is suggested. If one searches for "PC-PNDT Act arrest", they can find many news reports (so its not like 'misogynistic' Indians are doing nothing to stop it). https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/amritsar/doctor-sent-to-judicial-custody-for-violation-of-pc-pndt-act-225835 https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/amritsar/doctor-se... https://medicaldialogues.in/violation-of-pcpndt-act-doctor-arrested-for-conducting-illegal-sex-determination-test https://medicaldialogues.in/violation-of-pcpndt-act-doctor-a... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/sex-test-racket-busted-doctor-3-others-arrested/articleshow/85912468.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/sex-test-ra... https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/seven-arrested-in-crackdown-on-sex-determination-tests/article25699624.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/seven-ar... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/salem-doc-arrested-for-revealing-sex-of-fetus/articleshow/63837400.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/salem-doc-a... https://www.hindustantimes.com/pune-news/pune-radiologist-sentenced-to-3-years-jail-under-pcpndt-act-gets-bail/story-w1crqtbaD17zeoS7dWdpQI.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/pune-news/pune-radiologist-se... https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/ambala-man-arrested-for-allegedly-conducting-gender-test/story-P57sfYF4YQQgj7g63J7bLJ.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/ambala-man-arrested-fo... https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/woman-doctor-nabbed-for-violating-pc-pndt-act-116042100001_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/woman-... As for "Why does it matter who they are?": I am an Indian, and I visit HN multiple times a day. All the stories that get posted about India here belongs to one of the 3 categories - how Indians treat their women bad, how Indians are castist, or how Indian programmers are stupid. I am not saying not to shit on India or Indians, criticism is how we grow. But when the criticism is on a few selected areas, it leans towards propaganda. As for this specific topic, western media talks about it every chance they get. India has a huge number of problems, but focusing only one a few select things and stereotyping the people makes it look like propaganda to me. > are you saying Saudis abort girls similar to india or are you saying women's rights being considered bad relative to the west means saudis hate women, even their mothers and sisters I don't know how Saudis treat women. The only knowledge I have about Saudis is from Reddit. I am guessing you are a Saudi. So I hope you understand how social media stereotypes can turn harmful. My perception about the treatment of Saudi women is based on comments I see in Reddit. As for why I am opposed to it: here is one of the recent incidents that comes to my mind about how racial stereotypes can negatively impact people just based on their identity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_University_internship_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_University_internship_...
kaptain 5y ago
Separate but related thoughts: * Abortion is an issue that transcends labels like "pro-life" and "pro-choice". We ought to look at the issue as having a spectrum of positions (and most people would nuance their position beyond these labels). * "My body, my choice" seems woefully inadequate here. The individual's body doesn't belong to the state, but having personal autonomy be the highest value doesn't work very well in a pandemic. * China had a ban on gender preference which was exacerbated by the one-child policy (where there was evidence in some places of forced abortions). A policy that is/was so effective that even with the government encouraging couples to have two children, many are choosing not to because of economic and cultural values.
known 5y ago
Isn't illegal and inhuman? Bigots will destroy India https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418 https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418

20 points by 1cvmask 5y ago

28194608 5y ago

This is huge even though there's law against gender determination in India. Unless people are educated or dowries are strictly made illegal this can't be stopped.

1cvmask 5y ago
People perform abortions for a myriad of reasons in societies where it is legal. Preference for a gender over another seems like just another reason on an individual basis. On a societal basis where most people commit abortion for the same reason seems like it will have big repercussions down the road. I wonder if anyone has tried to model economic, business, societal and cultural outcomes of this. Will it even change TV shows or movies? This seems like an interesting A/B test of societies around the world. In history there used to be a male deficit in many societies after wars. I don't remember seeing many specific studies on that.
naruvimama 5y ago
"Dowry" is conflated, while dowry itself isn't an Indian term, in the Indian context it is often jewellery given to the bride by her parents often in lieu of her share of property. A witch hunt against this practice has actually worked against the women, and many are deprived of their ancestral property rights. A lot of women in Europe aren't even aware of their property rights, the first son generally gets the farm and the daughters get nothing (even if the farm is ancestral).

jwond 5y ago

Having a shortage of women (or excess of men) that leaves many men no hope of finding a woman to marry seems like it will not be good for the stability of society.

nonamechicken 5y ago

Not trying to dismiss the issue here. But I find this part of the article really ironic: > Academics from King Abdullah University of Science and Technology in Saudi Arabia projected the sex ratio at birth in 29 Indian states and union territories, covering almost the entire population, taking into account each state’s desired sex ratio at birth and the population’s fertility rates. > The study, published in the journal Plos One this week, called for strengthened policies that “advocate for gender equity and the introduction of support measures to counteract existing gender biases”. Saudis are commenting about Indians on gender equality!

_8j50 5y ago
No, academics are publishing research regarding a social issue in india. Why does it matter who they are? Let's say it does, are you saying Saudis abort girls similar to india or are you saying women's rights being considered bad relative to the west means saudis hate women, even their mothers and sisters? Perhaps you forget how recent women's right to vote and divorce is even in the west. Or maybe you think all the recent reforms regarding women's right in Saudi (they can finally travel on their own and drive) was thanks to western influence? Either way, ad-hominem against an academic work is not good in my opinion
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  Majority of the faculty and academics in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries used to be foreigners till the early 2000s at many of those research universities. I don't know what the percentage is today. It seems that almost all the faculty in Qatar (which 1-2 decades behind Saudi Arabia in becoming "overnight" wealthy) are non-Qatari for the Georgetown Qatar University: https://www.qatar.georgetown.edu/people/ https://www.qatar.georgetown.edu/people/
- nonamechicken 5y ago
  I don't see them as academics, but rather propagandists. I am wondering what exactly does this study achieve? The sex selective abortion issue in India is not a new thing. It has been studied a lot since the last 30 years (one of the first law banning gender determination was enacted in 1994). So I fail to understand what is the point of doing it again in 2020, when they could use that time to study something more useful. Also, its not like people in India doesn't know this is an issue. India already has laws banning gender determination before birth. There are big notices plastered everywhere in the waiting rooms and inside the (ultrasound) scanning centers that says that "sex determination is illegal, and punishable with so and so jail term and fines". Because of the laws, only time people would find out about the gender is when the nurse brings the baby outside for everyone to see after birth. This is one of the guidelines for scanning centres: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498636/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3498636/ >There should be a board, prominently displayed, with the message in English and the local language that ‘sex selection and detection is not done in this Centre and is punishable under the PC-PNDT Act’. This should be displayed in the waiting area and the USG room. No specific size for the message is suggested. If one searches for "PC-PNDT Act arrest", they can find many news reports (so its not like 'misogynistic' Indians are doing nothing to stop it). https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/amritsar/doctor-sent-to-judicial-custody-for-violation-of-pc-pndt-act-225835 https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/amritsar/doctor-se... https://medicaldialogues.in/violation-of-pcpndt-act-doctor-arrested-for-conducting-illegal-sex-determination-test https://medicaldialogues.in/violation-of-pcpndt-act-doctor-a... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/sex-test-racket-busted-doctor-3-others-arrested/articleshow/85912468.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/sex-test-ra... https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/seven-arrested-in-crackdown-on-sex-determination-tests/article25699624.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/seven-ar... https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/salem-doc-arrested-for-revealing-sex-of-fetus/articleshow/63837400.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/salem-doc-a... https://www.hindustantimes.com/pune-news/pune-radiologist-sentenced-to-3-years-jail-under-pcpndt-act-gets-bail/story-w1crqtbaD17zeoS7dWdpQI.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/pune-news/pune-radiologist-se... https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/ambala-man-arrested-for-allegedly-conducting-gender-test/story-P57sfYF4YQQgj7g63J7bLJ.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/ambala-man-arrested-fo... https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/woman-doctor-nabbed-for-violating-pc-pndt-act-116042100001_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/woman-... As for "Why does it matter who they are?": I am an Indian, and I visit HN multiple times a day. All the stories that get posted about India here belongs to one of the 3 categories - how Indians treat their women bad, how Indians are castist, or how Indian programmers are stupid. I am not saying not to shit on India or Indians, criticism is how we grow. But when the criticism is on a few selected areas, it leans towards propaganda. As for this specific topic, western media talks about it every chance they get. India has a huge number of problems, but focusing only one a few select things and stereotyping the people makes it look like propaganda to me. > are you saying Saudis abort girls similar to india or are you saying women's rights being considered bad relative to the west means saudis hate women, even their mothers and sisters I don't know how Saudis treat women. The only knowledge I have about Saudis is from Reddit. I am guessing you are a Saudi. So I hope you understand how social media stereotypes can turn harmful. My perception about the treatment of Saudi women is based on comments I see in Reddit. As for why I am opposed to it: here is one of the recent incidents that comes to my mind about how racial stereotypes can negatively impact people just based on their identity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_University_internship_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig_University_internship_...

kaptain 5y ago

Separate but related thoughts: * Abortion is an issue that transcends labels like "pro-life" and "pro-choice". We ought to look at the issue as having a spectrum of positions (and most people would nuance their position beyond these labels). * "My body, my choice" seems woefully inadequate here. The individual's body doesn't belong to the state, but having personal autonomy be the highest value doesn't work very well in a pandemic. * China had a ban on gender preference which was exacerbated by the one-child policy (where there was evidence in some places of forced abortions). A policy that is/was so effective that even with the government encouraging couples to have two children, many are choosing not to because of economic and cultural values.

known 5y ago

Isn't illegal and inhuman? Bigots will destroy India https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418 https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418