3 ms·

The irony of this been by a proponent of Wayland, which instead of fixing whatever issues were with X11 decided to nuke everything and rewrite it from scratch -

The irony of this been by a proponent of Wayland, which instead of fixing whatever issues were with X11 decided to nuke everything and rewrite it from scratch - such rewrites are some of by far the most common sources of bugs. And also one of many developers' favorite things to do since they replace something with known issues with something with unknown issues but of course they believe those issues wont exist or wont be as important (which of course can only be judged after the issues become known but hey, old stuff suck and new stuff are amazing). > Prefer to use proven technologies. LOL. What he writes is not wrong, but i just can't get over that he is the one writing all that stuff when he is among the people who contribute to bit rot and buggy unstable software that comes from having to rewrite shit over and over just to do the same thing and keep up with the "~assholes~ developers" (as he calls them) who break existing systems (and i'm sure there will be some excuse about why in Wayland's case it wont matter and isn't the same thing).

spacemanmatt 5y ago
Yes, just fix whatever issues were with X11. Why didn't anyone else think of that. I for one can't wait to have Wayland+pipewire in full effect.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  > Yes, just fix whatever issues were with X11. Why didn't anyone else think of that. You need more than thoughts, you also need people to work on it and projects like Wayland that take the oxygen out of the room make that harder. > I for one can't wait to have Wayland+pipewire in full effect. And so people who need to work with the Linux desktop will have to implement support for X11 and Wayland and yet another audio, video and whatever API (and thus all the potential bugs you might introduce) or use some external library (thus introducing additional points of failure for the future and introduce external factors that can affect your project's goals) that tries to provide a layer over these (with its own potential bugs of course). In other words making things more complicated and increasing the bug surface.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    I get where you are coming from, but honestly, have you really looked into pipewire at all? It implements the APIs it is replacing. Apps do not have to be rebuilt, but they're getting an implementation upgrade. I sorta doubt the Wayland plan is to simply discard all the X11 apps.
    - badsectoracula 5y ago
      Of course i have, PulseAudio also did the same with ALSA and yet that wasn't without a lot of issues for many people - and now Pipewire implements PulseAudio and ALSA and other stuff. Similarly, yes XWayland does provide support for running X11 applications (though not for window managers, etc) but it also has issues of its own.
      - spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I mean, no? PA provides some interfaces through ALSA, but that's really not the same architecture change as re-implementing the whole thing but providing the same ABI. PA is also objectively terrible and that's one of the motivations for writing pipewire. Seems to me like it's not rocket surgery to develop an X server that uses the Wayland compositor. It's just another video card at that point. We have way more complex things that work, so proposing that it won't work is not that interesting. https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html

spacemanmatt 5y ago

Yes, just fix whatever issues were with X11. Why didn't anyone else think of that. I for one can't wait to have Wayland+pipewire in full effect.

badsectoracula 5y ago
> Yes, just fix whatever issues were with X11. Why didn't anyone else think of that. You need more than thoughts, you also need people to work on it and projects like Wayland that take the oxygen out of the room make that harder. > I for one can't wait to have Wayland+pipewire in full effect. And so people who need to work with the Linux desktop will have to implement support for X11 and Wayland and yet another audio, video and whatever API (and thus all the potential bugs you might introduce) or use some external library (thus introducing additional points of failure for the future and introduce external factors that can affect your project's goals) that tries to provide a layer over these (with its own potential bugs of course). In other words making things more complicated and increasing the bug surface.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  I get where you are coming from, but honestly, have you really looked into pipewire at all? It implements the APIs it is replacing. Apps do not have to be rebuilt, but they're getting an implementation upgrade. I sorta doubt the Wayland plan is to simply discard all the X11 apps.
  - badsectoracula 5y ago
    Of course i have, PulseAudio also did the same with ALSA and yet that wasn't without a lot of issues for many people - and now Pipewire implements PulseAudio and ALSA and other stuff. Similarly, yes XWayland does provide support for running X11 applications (though not for window managers, etc) but it also has issues of its own.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      I mean, no? PA provides some interfaces through ALSA, but that's really not the same architecture change as re-implementing the whole thing but providing the same ABI. PA is also objectively terrible and that's one of the motivations for writing pipewire. Seems to me like it's not rocket surgery to develop an X server that uses the Wayland compositor. It's just another video card at that point. We have way more complex things that work, so proposing that it won't work is not that interesting. https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html