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That is not true at all and you don't really understand the full spectrum of the placebo effect. It's not about having the subjective illusion of healing, it's

That is not true at all and you don't really understand the full spectrum of the placebo effect. It's not about having the subjective illusion of healing, it's about modulating biochemistry to affect healing. There are cases where, for instance, placebo branch participants in a study for antidepressants had measurable brainwave pattern changes after "treatment". What you're describing is an outdated / misunderstanding of placebo.

lambdaba 5y ago
Conversely, see "voodoo death": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death > Voodoo death, a term coined by Walter Cannon in 1942 also known as psychogenic death or psychosomatic death, is the phenomenon of sudden death as brought about by a strong emotional shock, such as fear. The anomaly is recognized as "psychosomatic" in that death is caused by an emotional response—often fear—to some suggested outside force. Voodoo death is particularly noted in native societies, and concentration- or prisoner of war camps, but the condition is not specific to any particular culture.[1]
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  This still aligns with the observation that psychological state can impact blood pressure and similar heart-related physiology. This is not surprising and not indicative of anything very deep, as we know very well we can consciously control our rate of respiration which also directly correlates with pulse and blood pressure. It isn't surprising then that, just like your heart can fail from exaggerated effort, it can also fail from psychological stress forcing the same behaviors. The same is not true for your liver or bone marrow. You have 0 conscious control over those, and psychological factors have 0 impact on these.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    You're very certain of things you shouldn't be so certain about, I'll leave it at that.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    I mean, even just Wim Hof is proof that you can have conscious control over things previously thought you couldn't.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    re: "voodoo death", https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.521.4302&rep=rep1&type=pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52... > Cannon stated that voodoo death resulted when all body forces were mobilized and maintained for an action which never came. > He felt that the death was primarily due to prolonged overstimulation of the adrenals by the sympathetic nervous system. Richter, however, felt that the demise was due to a complete "giving up," a feeling of utter hopelessness and helplessness; in effect, a parasympathetic death. > Zoological experts have observed this in the deaths of wild animals who find themselves suddenly caged in an apparently hopeless situation. > The thin veneer of civilized intellect covering man's primitive emotions serves as an armor to prevent vulnerability to this type of influence. It is suggested that when this armor proves too thin, modern man may also succumb, albeit less directly and more slowly, than did his less sophisticated predecessors. This stuff is fascinating to me. PS: I have to say I'm sorry for the sometimes aggressive tone in some of our exchanges here, this is a topic that's close to heart.
tsimionescu 5y ago
No, you are just not familiar with the data. There is no such thing as 'modulating biochemistry', the placebo effect is not different from no treatment at all except for the few cases I talked about. This has been throughly tested, and the conclusions are overwhelming: there is no such thing as spiritual healing or quantum healing or other such bullshit. Its all fraud and picking the few people who have happened to recover. Even in the playlist you gave, it's mostly people who have had improvements in things like pain, irritation, scratching, stuttering. The rest is happenstance: cancers sometimes go into remission, treatments with low chance of success sometimes work and so on. Again every time this has been studied well it has proven to be ineffective. Sometimes subjective effects are even explicitly contradicted: placebo inhalers make people with asthma feel better, but they do not in fact improve their blood oxygen levels one iota. You have a playlist of 580 testimonials of these frauds 'helping' people. Look for such things, and see how many millions of testimonials you'll find of people who have not survived after trying to rely on 'faith healing' and 'bioenergetics' and 'eastern medicine' and so on. Edit to add: your example of brain pattern changes in people suffering from depression on placebo treatments is again perfectly in line with known medical practices. Depression and many other psychological illnesses are well known and reported to be improved by non-pharmacological treatments such as psyhco-therapy. The gold standard in treatment of depression is a combination of psychotherapy and anti-depressants, which has been proven to be more efficient than either on its own. However, this doesn't in any way prove that psychotherapy can help with tuberculosis, as you seem to believe.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  > Even in the playlist you gave, it's mostly people who have had improvements in things like pain, irritation, scratching, stuttering. The rest is happenstance: cancers sometimes go into remission, treatments with low chance of success sometimes work and so on. I've watched hundreds of them, that's not an accurate description at all.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  I don't think you even know what Joe Dispenza's method even consists of. Again, you seem triggered by words such as "quantum", "bioenergetics", etc. I've seen many testimonials that can definitely NOT be dismissed as easily as you imply.

lambdaba 5y ago

Conversely, see "voodoo death": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death > Voodoo death, a term coined by Walter Cannon in 1942 also known as psychogenic death or psychosomatic death, is the phenomenon of sudden death as brought about by a strong emotional shock, such as fear. The anomaly is recognized as "psychosomatic" in that death is caused by an emotional response—often fear—to some suggested outside force. Voodoo death is particularly noted in native societies, and concentration- or prisoner of war camps, but the condition is not specific to any particular culture.[1]

tsimionescu 5y ago
This still aligns with the observation that psychological state can impact blood pressure and similar heart-related physiology. This is not surprising and not indicative of anything very deep, as we know very well we can consciously control our rate of respiration which also directly correlates with pulse and blood pressure. It isn't surprising then that, just like your heart can fail from exaggerated effort, it can also fail from psychological stress forcing the same behaviors. The same is not true for your liver or bone marrow. You have 0 conscious control over those, and psychological factors have 0 impact on these.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  You're very certain of things you shouldn't be so certain about, I'll leave it at that.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  I mean, even just Wim Hof is proof that you can have conscious control over things previously thought you couldn't.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  re: "voodoo death", https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.521.4302&rep=rep1&type=pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52... > Cannon stated that voodoo death resulted when all body forces were mobilized and maintained for an action which never came. > He felt that the death was primarily due to prolonged overstimulation of the adrenals by the sympathetic nervous system. Richter, however, felt that the demise was due to a complete "giving up," a feeling of utter hopelessness and helplessness; in effect, a parasympathetic death. > Zoological experts have observed this in the deaths of wild animals who find themselves suddenly caged in an apparently hopeless situation. > The thin veneer of civilized intellect covering man's primitive emotions serves as an armor to prevent vulnerability to this type of influence. It is suggested that when this armor proves too thin, modern man may also succumb, albeit less directly and more slowly, than did his less sophisticated predecessors. This stuff is fascinating to me. PS: I have to say I'm sorry for the sometimes aggressive tone in some of our exchanges here, this is a topic that's close to heart.

tsimionescu 5y ago

No, you are just not familiar with the data. There is no such thing as 'modulating biochemistry', the placebo effect is not different from no treatment at all except for the few cases I talked about. This has been throughly tested, and the conclusions are overwhelming: there is no such thing as spiritual healing or quantum healing or other such bullshit. Its all fraud and picking the few people who have happened to recover. Even in the playlist you gave, it's mostly people who have had improvements in things like pain, irritation, scratching, stuttering. The rest is happenstance: cancers sometimes go into remission, treatments with low chance of success sometimes work and so on. Again every time this has been studied well it has proven to be ineffective. Sometimes subjective effects are even explicitly contradicted: placebo inhalers make people with asthma feel better, but they do not in fact improve their blood oxygen levels one iota. You have a playlist of 580 testimonials of these frauds 'helping' people. Look for such things, and see how many millions of testimonials you'll find of people who have not survived after trying to rely on 'faith healing' and 'bioenergetics' and 'eastern medicine' and so on. Edit to add: your example of brain pattern changes in people suffering from depression on placebo treatments is again perfectly in line with known medical practices. Depression and many other psychological illnesses are well known and reported to be improved by non-pharmacological treatments such as psyhco-therapy. The gold standard in treatment of depression is a combination of psychotherapy and anti-depressants, which has been proven to be more efficient than either on its own. However, this doesn't in any way prove that psychotherapy can help with tuberculosis, as you seem to believe.

lambdaba 5y ago
> Even in the playlist you gave, it's mostly people who have had improvements in things like pain, irritation, scratching, stuttering. The rest is happenstance: cancers sometimes go into remission, treatments with low chance of success sometimes work and so on. I've watched hundreds of them, that's not an accurate description at all.
lambdaba 5y ago
I don't think you even know what Joe Dispenza's method even consists of. Again, you seem triggered by words such as "quantum", "bioenergetics", etc. I've seen many testimonials that can definitely NOT be dismissed as easily as you imply.