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But BELIEF is EXACTLY the point. Joe Dispenza just uses (or, in your view, abuses) scientific terms to explain the HOW to his audience. You can't teach belief t

But BELIEF is EXACTLY the point. Joe Dispenza just uses (or, in your view, abuses) scientific terms to explain the HOW to his audience. You can't teach belief to people if you prefix everything with hesitancy or overly qualify everything, that would go counter to the effect you're trying to have. Again, in summary the "teaching" of Joe Dispenza is that belief creates emotion, emotion modulates biochemistry, biochemistry can be harmonized (placebo) or disharmonized (nocebo). The scientific wording is just a wrapper, if that's distasteful to you, fine, but it's nothing more than a superficial reaction, one that's very common in the "skeptic" community.

mrintegrity 5y ago
I would love to review Joe's material to be able to provide a more thorough response, but I can't afford the 100s dollars he charges.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  You can find most of it for free online. And I'm not talking about pirating stuff, just tons and tons of free content, not to mention community content.
tsimionescu 5y ago
The problem is that this "teaching" is demonstrably false for all but a handful of conditions. Whether he coats it in misapplied sciencey-sounding gobbledygook ('quantum healing' lol), it doesn't change the fact that it won't "cure" anything other than pain, anxiety, nausea, stress and a handful of other symptoms. And we have actual medicine that helps much more for all of these.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  That is not true at all and you don't really understand the full spectrum of the placebo effect. It's not about having the subjective illusion of healing, it's about modulating biochemistry to affect healing. There are cases where, for instance, placebo branch participants in a study for antidepressants had measurable brainwave pattern changes after "treatment". What you're describing is an outdated / misunderstanding of placebo.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    Conversely, see "voodoo death": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death > Voodoo death, a term coined by Walter Cannon in 1942 also known as psychogenic death or psychosomatic death, is the phenomenon of sudden death as brought about by a strong emotional shock, such as fear. The anomaly is recognized as "psychosomatic" in that death is caused by an emotional response—often fear—to some suggested outside force. Voodoo death is particularly noted in native societies, and concentration- or prisoner of war camps, but the condition is not specific to any particular culture.[1]
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      This still aligns with the observation that psychological state can impact blood pressure and similar heart-related physiology. This is not surprising and not indicative of anything very deep, as we know very well we can consciously control our rate of respiration which also directly correlates with pulse and blood pressure. It isn't surprising then that, just like your heart can fail from exaggerated effort, it can also fail from psychological stress forcing the same behaviors. The same is not true for your liver or bone marrow. You have 0 conscious control over those, and psychological factors have 0 impact on these.
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        You're very certain of things you shouldn't be so certain about, I'll leave it at that.
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        I mean, even just Wim Hof is proof that you can have conscious control over things previously thought you couldn't.
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        re: "voodoo death", https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.521.4302&rep=rep1&type=pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52... > Cannon stated that voodoo death resulted when all body forces were mobilized and maintained for an action which never came. > He felt that the death was primarily due to prolonged overstimulation of the adrenals by the sympathetic nervous system. Richter, however, felt that the demise was due to a complete "giving up," a feeling of utter hopelessness and helplessness; in effect, a parasympathetic death. > Zoological experts have observed this in the deaths of wild animals who find themselves suddenly caged in an apparently hopeless situation. > The thin veneer of civilized intellect covering man's primitive emotions serves as an armor to prevent vulnerability to this type of influence. It is suggested that when this armor proves too thin, modern man may also succumb, albeit less directly and more slowly, than did his less sophisticated predecessors. This stuff is fascinating to me. PS: I have to say I'm sorry for the sometimes aggressive tone in some of our exchanges here, this is a topic that's close to heart.

mrintegrity 5y ago

I would love to review Joe's material to be able to provide a more thorough response, but I can't afford the 100s dollars he charges.

lambdaba 5y ago
You can find most of it for free online. And I'm not talking about pirating stuff, just tons and tons of free content, not to mention community content.

tsimionescu 5y ago

The problem is that this "teaching" is demonstrably false for all but a handful of conditions. Whether he coats it in misapplied sciencey-sounding gobbledygook ('quantum healing' lol), it doesn't change the fact that it won't "cure" anything other than pain, anxiety, nausea, stress and a handful of other symptoms. And we have actual medicine that helps much more for all of these.

lambdaba 5y ago
That is not true at all and you don't really understand the full spectrum of the placebo effect. It's not about having the subjective illusion of healing, it's about modulating biochemistry to affect healing. There are cases where, for instance, placebo branch participants in a study for antidepressants had measurable brainwave pattern changes after "treatment". What you're describing is an outdated / misunderstanding of placebo.
- lambdaba 5y ago
  Conversely, see "voodoo death": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_death > Voodoo death, a term coined by Walter Cannon in 1942 also known as psychogenic death or psychosomatic death, is the phenomenon of sudden death as brought about by a strong emotional shock, such as fear. The anomaly is recognized as "psychosomatic" in that death is caused by an emotional response—often fear—to some suggested outside force. Voodoo death is particularly noted in native societies, and concentration- or prisoner of war camps, but the condition is not specific to any particular culture.[1]
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    This still aligns with the observation that psychological state can impact blood pressure and similar heart-related physiology. This is not surprising and not indicative of anything very deep, as we know very well we can consciously control our rate of respiration which also directly correlates with pulse and blood pressure. It isn't surprising then that, just like your heart can fail from exaggerated effort, it can also fail from psychological stress forcing the same behaviors. The same is not true for your liver or bone marrow. You have 0 conscious control over those, and psychological factors have 0 impact on these.
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      You're very certain of things you shouldn't be so certain about, I'll leave it at that.
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      I mean, even just Wim Hof is proof that you can have conscious control over things previously thought you couldn't.
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      re: "voodoo death", https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.521.4302&rep=rep1&type=pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52... > Cannon stated that voodoo death resulted when all body forces were mobilized and maintained for an action which never came. > He felt that the death was primarily due to prolonged overstimulation of the adrenals by the sympathetic nervous system. Richter, however, felt that the demise was due to a complete "giving up," a feeling of utter hopelessness and helplessness; in effect, a parasympathetic death. > Zoological experts have observed this in the deaths of wild animals who find themselves suddenly caged in an apparently hopeless situation. > The thin veneer of civilized intellect covering man's primitive emotions serves as an armor to prevent vulnerability to this type of influence. It is suggested that when this armor proves too thin, modern man may also succumb, albeit less directly and more slowly, than did his less sophisticated predecessors. This stuff is fascinating to me. PS: I have to say I'm sorry for the sometimes aggressive tone in some of our exchanges here, this is a topic that's close to heart.