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Reading this and the talk about how “surprising” it is reminds me of how I’ve been researching British Columbia’s relationship with First Nations people, and th

Reading this and the talk about how “surprising” it is reminds me of how I’ve been researching British Columbia’s relationship with First Nations people, and this research extended to other people in the Pacific Northwest under the US system. My takeaway is that everything about this is heavily misunderstood. As CPG Grey also concluded, the entire concept is overinclusive, to its detriment. As we squabble between terms like indigenous, First Nations, native American, Indian, we are missing that these are all distinct cultures and there is no overarching grouping really possible. Each distinct group has its own name, own customs, own case law and enjoyed its own sovereignty at one point, and should be addressed by the name of their people, at the same standard we distinguish people by country or religion. British Columbia is uniquely addressing this, with rights conveyances group by group. But it is a very long way from being closer to accurate. I think accelerating this relies on non First Nations people understanding that there is no overarching term possible (I dare say, including “First Nations”) and that the map of North America should be dotted with microstates just like Europe is

angelzen 5y ago
Europe is far from being dotted with microstates. There are a handful of relics, but most of Europe has been unified under some larger nation state. For a historical perspective, a political map of pre-1800 Germany with 'up to 350 states': https://twitter.com/weird_hist/status/1260451732221542400 https://twitter.com/weird_hist/status/1260451732221542400
- vmception 5y ago
  I think that neither enhances or dilutes my point. Modern microstates are the nearest analog. But they are on more kinds of maps, lists of countries, and the people currently on reservations should have something more similar to that.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Modern Europe is not a good comparison. Something like Papua-New Guinea is probably closer. Not even sure how far into Europe's past one needs to go to find an ethno-political system similar to B.C. circa 1800. Medieval Europe? The era of Greek city states? https://www.muturzikin.com/cartesoceanie/oceanie2.htm https://www.muturzikin.com/cartesoceanie/oceanie2.htm
    - vmception 5y ago
      Sure, I’ll bite: how would you describe Papau-New Guinea’s system in a way that could quickly convey an enhancement to what the reservation and other treaties around North America, since “Microstate like Europe” doesn’t convey that - to some
      - angelzen 5y ago
        To the best of my understanding, B.C. circa 1800 can be described as 'patchwork of sovereign micro-ethnic groups in rugged terrain' Europe microstates: Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, Vatican, Liechtenstein, Faeroe, maybe Iceland and Luxembourg. Relics of times long past, historical curiosities. Papua NewGuinea: 832 living languages, presumably each with an independent history tracing hundreds if not thousands of years. Most of them with <3k speakers each. The largest ones with <250k speakers. https://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Papuan.html https://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Papuan.html
        vmception 5y ago
        And how would that mix with losing to a more powerful group which has diplomatic consensus with the rest of the world while maintaining sovereignty and trade with the more powerful winner? I am not seeing how recognizing Papua-New Guinea’s language history addresses that? I’m not familiar with how its governed or if it has to balance cultures, resources and property with an imperial force that merely tolerates everyone else.
        angelzen 5y ago
        Can't help with that. I'm interested in ethno-geography. Here's a nice map of early XIX century Coast Salish micro ethnic groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_Salish#/media/File:Coast_Salish_language_map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_Salish#/media/File:Coast...
- dsomers 5y ago
  This is kind of debatable through, sure there are national laws, and even EU wide laws. However, Germany has its states, Berlin has different laws than Hamburg for certain things, same as Italy and Spain have their regions with various levels of autonomy. Every municipality all over Europe has control of some of its local laws, too. We don’t just have one European wide law, or even German wide law for every aspect of law.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Sure, but not every small town has a distinct language and distinct set of laws. The OP talks about "food security for an estimated 10,000-12,000 K'ómoks People", unclear that the K'ómoks ethnic group was much larger than 10k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27%C3%B3moks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27%C3%B3moks
    - Kluny 5y ago
      On Vancouver island where the Komoks people lived, there certainly was a distinct language and culture and possibly laws for probably half a dozen or more groups. On the island alone, I (a white person), know of the Songhees, Lekwungen, Tsartslip, Tsawout, Wsanec, Cowichan, Pacheedaht, Ucluelet, and Homalco nations. All those are local to the island and have their own languages and traditions. Point being that there can be a surprising number of micronations in a very small area.
      - vmception 5y ago
        Regarding your disclaimer, wouldn't it be more apt to say "someone with no Komoks blood" or "a white person that also has no First Nation lineage" the latter if you also want the affect of your disclaimer. I'm thinking its a pretty distinctly North American experience for people of any color to have some First Nation/indigenous/local heritage. At least for the black and white people that have been here for 200-600 years. this is more so curiosity than a correction.
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    Just like every county in the US can have different laws. An example might be sales tax rates in Florida. Maybe the top poster should say that the map of North America should be dotted with micro-states like the USA (maybe even like Canada, I don't know) That way it wouldn't sound like an American trying to paint Europe as some kind of parochial backwater of medieval fiefdoms.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> that the map of North America should be dotted with microstates So who gets which microstate? Which point in history should be selected as the point whereby the name of the resident people is attached to a particular patch of land? These peoples moved around, they migrated and conquered one another for millennia. Does the arrival of Europeans suddenly lock them into whatever territory they had at the moment of first contact? Making the groups smaller risks dividing communities and cutting off people from the most lucrative claims processes. I'm sure the people of northern BC don't want to be cut off from the claims in the south, the claims involving the most valuable lands. BC, and Canada more widely, is struggling to determine who should even be at the table to negotiate. Traditional territories overlap. Blood claims are often based on shaky evidence. Something as slim as a single forged letter can expand or contract a community by thousands. If treaties or settlements are going to be signed, by who? Are the people in charge of various groups today in any better position to sign permanent deals than their ancestors were a few hundred years ago? We are generations away from any real conclusion to these issues.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- vmception 5y ago
  I agree on all points. Another time overinclusivity rears its head is when people get vicariously offended for all indigenous people when they see someone wearing a headdress. One tribe says its ceremonial, can another tribe license it out … commercially … and all is fine? The same question as you, who gets to sign the contract, who has a say? How do you know the person wearing the headdress at a festival is breaking a relevant rule, or if they arent of a tribe, or if they didnt get permission - you cant tell by skin color or any phenotype so who gets to say - , and so on and so forth. The consensus making process is completely broken because even the most progressive and sensitive people are doing an extremely insensitive overgrouping.
rendall 5y ago
> As we squabble between terms like indigenous, First Nations, native American, Indian, we are missing that these are all distinct cultures and there is no overarching grouping really possible. I agree; and moreover about the terms "white" and "black". Using these terms as if they actually refer to something in common beyond melanin level elides the true and magnificent variety of human cultural expression and historical diversity. White for example refers to peoples as different as Appalachian descendants of Scottish Reavers as well as Berber royalty, among thousands of other cultures and heritages. Black, likewise, refers to peoples as different as African-Americans as well as to elite descendents of millenia-old Malian and west-African dynasties; among thousands of other heritages and cultures.
anitil 5y ago
Do you think that documentary series will ever happen?
- vmception 5y ago
  no. I think his initial research is what is necessary and, at best, he can do a video summary and focus on one or two specific recognized groups living on reservations. This topic goes deep. His whole thing is picking a mundane small feature of society and expounding on that to make it interesting, and the reality is that each indigenous culture should have many of those things to dive into, no different than how the UK or the Solar System has many different things to dive into (the inspiration for many of his other research videos). But trying to do a broader series on cultures in North America has far too much depth, unless he pivots to that. I'm sure its on his backburner, but I'm also sure he's too far ahead of the culture on this one.

angelzen 5y ago

Europe is far from being dotted with microstates. There are a handful of relics, but most of Europe has been unified under some larger nation state. For a historical perspective, a political map of pre-1800 Germany with 'up to 350 states': https://twitter.com/weird_hist/status/1260451732221542400 https://twitter.com/weird_hist/status/1260451732221542400

vmception 5y ago
I think that neither enhances or dilutes my point. Modern microstates are the nearest analog. But they are on more kinds of maps, lists of countries, and the people currently on reservations should have something more similar to that.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Modern Europe is not a good comparison. Something like Papua-New Guinea is probably closer. Not even sure how far into Europe's past one needs to go to find an ethno-political system similar to B.C. circa 1800. Medieval Europe? The era of Greek city states? https://www.muturzikin.com/cartesoceanie/oceanie2.htm https://www.muturzikin.com/cartesoceanie/oceanie2.htm
  - vmception 5y ago
    Sure, I’ll bite: how would you describe Papau-New Guinea’s system in a way that could quickly convey an enhancement to what the reservation and other treaties around North America, since “Microstate like Europe” doesn’t convey that - to some
    - angelzen 5y ago
      To the best of my understanding, B.C. circa 1800 can be described as 'patchwork of sovereign micro-ethnic groups in rugged terrain' Europe microstates: Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, Vatican, Liechtenstein, Faeroe, maybe Iceland and Luxembourg. Relics of times long past, historical curiosities. Papua NewGuinea: 832 living languages, presumably each with an independent history tracing hundreds if not thousands of years. Most of them with <3k speakers each. The largest ones with <250k speakers. https://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Papuan.html https://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Papuan.html
      - vmception 5y ago
        And how would that mix with losing to a more powerful group which has diplomatic consensus with the rest of the world while maintaining sovereignty and trade with the more powerful winner? I am not seeing how recognizing Papua-New Guinea’s language history addresses that? I’m not familiar with how its governed or if it has to balance cultures, resources and property with an imperial force that merely tolerates everyone else.
        angelzen 5y ago
        Can't help with that. I'm interested in ethno-geography. Here's a nice map of early XIX century Coast Salish micro ethnic groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_Salish#/media/File:Coast_Salish_language_map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_Salish#/media/File:Coast...
dsomers 5y ago
This is kind of debatable through, sure there are national laws, and even EU wide laws. However, Germany has its states, Berlin has different laws than Hamburg for certain things, same as Italy and Spain have their regions with various levels of autonomy. Every municipality all over Europe has control of some of its local laws, too. We don’t just have one European wide law, or even German wide law for every aspect of law.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Sure, but not every small town has a distinct language and distinct set of laws. The OP talks about "food security for an estimated 10,000-12,000 K'ómoks People", unclear that the K'ómoks ethnic group was much larger than 10k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27%C3%B3moks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27%C3%B3moks
  - Kluny 5y ago
    On Vancouver island where the Komoks people lived, there certainly was a distinct language and culture and possibly laws for probably half a dozen or more groups. On the island alone, I (a white person), know of the Songhees, Lekwungen, Tsartslip, Tsawout, Wsanec, Cowichan, Pacheedaht, Ucluelet, and Homalco nations. All those are local to the island and have their own languages and traditions. Point being that there can be a surprising number of micronations in a very small area.
    - vmception 5y ago
      Regarding your disclaimer, wouldn't it be more apt to say "someone with no Komoks blood" or "a white person that also has no First Nation lineage" the latter if you also want the affect of your disclaimer. I'm thinking its a pretty distinctly North American experience for people of any color to have some First Nation/indigenous/local heritage. At least for the black and white people that have been here for 200-600 years. this is more so curiosity than a correction.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  Just like every county in the US can have different laws. An example might be sales tax rates in Florida. Maybe the top poster should say that the map of North America should be dotted with micro-states like the USA (maybe even like Canada, I don't know) That way it wouldn't sound like an American trying to paint Europe as some kind of parochial backwater of medieval fiefdoms.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> that the map of North America should be dotted with microstates So who gets which microstate? Which point in history should be selected as the point whereby the name of the resident people is attached to a particular patch of land? These peoples moved around, they migrated and conquered one another for millennia. Does the arrival of Europeans suddenly lock them into whatever territory they had at the moment of first contact? Making the groups smaller risks dividing communities and cutting off people from the most lucrative claims processes. I'm sure the people of northern BC don't want to be cut off from the claims in the south, the claims involving the most valuable lands. BC, and Canada more widely, is struggling to determine who should even be at the table to negotiate. Traditional territories overlap. Blood claims are often based on shaky evidence. Something as slim as a single forged letter can expand or contract a community by thousands. If treaties or settlements are going to be signed, by who? Are the people in charge of various groups today in any better position to sign permanent deals than their ancestors were a few hundred years ago? We are generations away from any real conclusion to these issues.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vmception 5y ago
I agree on all points. Another time overinclusivity rears its head is when people get vicariously offended for all indigenous people when they see someone wearing a headdress. One tribe says its ceremonial, can another tribe license it out … commercially … and all is fine? The same question as you, who gets to sign the contract, who has a say? How do you know the person wearing the headdress at a festival is breaking a relevant rule, or if they arent of a tribe, or if they didnt get permission - you cant tell by skin color or any phenotype so who gets to say - , and so on and so forth. The consensus making process is completely broken because even the most progressive and sensitive people are doing an extremely insensitive overgrouping.

rendall 5y ago

> As we squabble between terms like indigenous, First Nations, native American, Indian, we are missing that these are all distinct cultures and there is no overarching grouping really possible. I agree; and moreover about the terms "white" and "black". Using these terms as if they actually refer to something in common beyond melanin level elides the true and magnificent variety of human cultural expression and historical diversity. White for example refers to peoples as different as Appalachian descendants of Scottish Reavers as well as Berber royalty, among thousands of other cultures and heritages. Black, likewise, refers to peoples as different as African-Americans as well as to elite descendents of millenia-old Malian and west-African dynasties; among thousands of other heritages and cultures.

anitil 5y ago

Do you think that documentary series will ever happen?

vmception 5y ago
no. I think his initial research is what is necessary and, at best, he can do a video summary and focus on one or two specific recognized groups living on reservations. This topic goes deep. His whole thing is picking a mundane small feature of society and expounding on that to make it interesting, and the reality is that each indigenous culture should have many of those things to dive into, no different than how the UK or the Solar System has many different things to dive into (the inspiration for many of his other research videos). But trying to do a broader series on cultures in North America has far too much depth, unless he pivots to that. I'm sure its on his backburner, but I'm also sure he's too far ahead of the culture on this one.