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> Imagine that on every international flight, 8 passengers died from covid > Imagine that at every capacity game at Madison square garden (or another sports ve

> Imagine that on every international flight, 8 passengers died from covid > Imagine that at every capacity game at Madison square garden (or another sports venue of your choice) 200 people died of covid. > Every time. > Now think about that and ask yourself if you might think twice before flying internationally or going to a basketball game. Yes, in absolute terms, the number of people who have died from COVID is significant. But your examples use random populations, which is a bit misleading because we know that the vast majority of COVID deaths are in specific populations -- the elderly, the obese, the diabetic. Of course, some countries have seen far more deaths than others, but the statistics make it pretty clear this is because their populations are older and have more comorbidities. See https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-ra... > In an analysis of data and studies from more than 160 countries, the researchers found that Covid-19 mortality rates increased along with countries' prevalence of obesity. They note that the link persisted even after adjusting for age and national wealth. > The report found that every country where less than 40% of the population was overweight had a low Covid-19 death rate of no more than 10 people per 100,000. As the article notes, over two-thirds of Americans are overweight so let's rephrase your question: imagine that you went to a full-capacity game at MSG and the majority of people were overweight (and 40% were obese!). Because that's what America actually looks like. Maybe we should be thinking about that too?

iab 5y ago
Fortunately, you can't catch obesity from being in close contact with other obese people. Or take it home, and transmit it to younger and/or more at-risk people; Cheeseburgers don't work that way. More vaccinations mean better protection for everybody - this is the whole point.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > More vaccinations mean better protection for everybody You don't need children to be protected for example with vaccines because they do not suffer from COVID19-related disease. That's a fact.
  - justin66 5y ago
    All untrue. Children suffer from COVID 19 and in the United States account for over 1% of COVID 19 related hospitalizations. It's extremely rare that they die from it, but that's not what you wrote. More to the OP's point regarding vaccination protecting everybody, vaccination reduces the odds children will spread the virus if they catch it.
    - ekianjo 5y ago
      > More to the OP's point regarding vaccination protecting everybody, vaccination reduces the odds children will spread the virus if they catch it. Factually wrong. Vaccinated people carry just as much viral load as others when they are exposed to the virus. Already been proven in multiple publications. > Children suffer from COVID 19 and in the United States account for over 1% of COVID 19 related hospitalizations. Children of what age, and suffering of what comorbidities please?
      - justin66 5y ago
        Yeesh. I don’t know about “proof” but the paper that came just this month from UC Davis vis a vis viral load among the vaccinated is sobering. I just saw it this morning. I don’t understand why one would view the presence of comorbidities as a reason to say what you said above, as if those people do not exist. There might be a case that a highly resource constrained society would want to limit vaccination among children to those with comorbidities.
  - iab 5y ago
    That’s a fact, in the same way that up is the same as down
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  > More vaccinations mean better protection for everybody - this is the whole point. One can agree with that while at the same time acknowledging that the vaccines aren't anywhere near 100% protective. The science says that neutralizing antibodies that are produced after vaccination wane quickly (in months) and vaccinated individuals can still get and transmit the virus. And guess what? The serious breakthrough cases appear to be happening most often in the very groups of people who are most at risk when unvaccinated -- the immunocompromised, the elderly, the overweight and obese, and the diabetic. In short, everyone who is SARS-CoV-2 naive should seriously consider getting vaccinated if they haven't been already because it generally provides strong protection against hospitalization and death, but when assessing individual risk, let's not pretend that the risk of severe outcomes is equal in all people. COVID is an opportunity to talk about metabolic health that we're sadly largely missing.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    > COVID is an opportunity to talk about metabolic health that we're sadly largely missing. Exactly, instead of just reporting "deaths", we should be reporting "death by multiple comorbidities" in a matrix form, if we even slightly cared about the science one bit. But no, the media and politicians are just interested in controlling the narrative that it kills everyone randomly.
    - iab 5y ago
      Yes, people distorting things to suit their agenda. Your comments, for example.
- exodust 5y ago
  > Cheeseburgers don't work that way. No, but you can't completely exclude the manipulative effects of communal eating habits. You can't exclude the multi-billion dollar tactics to promote, associate, tempt, entice and feed children, adults and families with fast food. Nor can you exclude the actual food, including portion size, sugar content, and cost/value from having a "transmission" effect of hooking vulnerable people on convenient, cheap, endlessly available junk food. All repeatedly validated via communal eating habits, symbols, signs and billboard displayed everywhere. Imprints of these messages become part of your brain's neural network over years. Cheeseburgers don't work like the virus, but you can wake up one day and realize you've consumed 50 kilograms of cheeseburgers, fries and coke in the last year, and wonder how the hell that happened and why you're now in the high risk category.
  - iab 5y ago
    This is true, and irrelevant. You can’t vaccinate against the spread of obesity, which is what we are talking about
    - exodust 5y ago
      It's not irrelevant. Obesity is an epidemic. "One of today’s most blatantly visible – yet most neglected – public health problems" according to the WHO. Someone above pointed out to you that the majority of COVID deaths are in specific populations -- the elderly, the obese, the diabetic, and that "maybe we should think about that", which you replied with "you can't vaccinate against obesity". Vaccination is just one way to deal with an epidemic. The WHO coined "globesity" to describe the escalating global epidemic "taking over many parts of the world". "Its health consequences range from increased risk of premature death to serious chronic conditions that reduce the overall quality of life." https://www.who.int/activities/controlling-the-global-obesity-epidemic https://www.who.int/activities/controlling-the-global-obesit...
      - iab 5y ago
        It is irrelevant to the discussion of vaccines, of which this one. Or do you believe we can vaccinate against obesity, because I am starting to think you do
dools 5y ago
The implication of the OP is that 1% is nothing to worry about. I’m putting it in terms that may illustrate just how big that risk is compared to other areas where we wouldn’t accept those risks. The implication of your post is that 1% of people dying isn’t an issue so long as they are old or fat. But anyway let’s take your statistic of 10 people per 100,000. Now imagine a sports venue where every 5 games 10 people died of food poisoning but far more got really sick and some even required hospitalisation. Would you choose to eat the food at that venue when you went there?
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > Now imagine a sports venue where every 5 games 10 people died of food poisoning but far more got really sick and some even required hospitalisation. Would you choose to eat the food at that venue when you went there? Now imagine driving. You see where your line of reasoning does not make sense anymore? Everything we do in life carries risks.
  - victorhooi 5y ago
    Right, and imagine if somebody invented a simple injection that reduced road deaths...how many people do you think would be interested in this? Do you have any idea how many millions of dollars car companies invest every year into making cars marginally safer? Even if you somehow assume everybody working at a car company is somehow immoral - imagine the profit motive if they invented a car that reduced your risk of dying by 75%? People would be clamouring to license the technology. Yes, we all want to drive, but if you could let us still drive, and be safer... The amount of crazy conspiracy theories around COVID, and how it's about government control, or big pharma is mind-boggling. It's a pandemic - we've had them before, except this time, we have science, and invested billions of dollars into research to get a vaccine. Sure, it's not 100% effective, but by this point in time, we have a fairly good idea that it's benefits heavily outweigh the risks across the population. And the vaccine is free...
    - exodust 5y ago
      > imagine if somebody invented a simple injection that reduced road deaths...how many people do you think would be interested in this? Good to see a road safety analogy that doesn't replace injections with seat belts or speeding signs. But the injection would not be popular if it were mandated for all drivers. Even for those not at high risk at becoming drowsy, or whatever the injection addresses to reduce deaths. Particularly if more than one injection was required, and further boosters after that, with imperfect protection, and special certificates needed. People would resist. > The amount of crazy conspiracy theories around COVID, and how it's about government control... Yes there's some over-cooked conspiracies. But in Australia, our state government has mandated the vaccine for more than a million workers. Office workers, all workers not working from home. Plus no entry to cafes, haircuts etc. Everyone must carry proof of vaccination, preferably via the government's app. There is no option to get a negative test and visit your work or other places. There is no option for proof of natural immunity. It's vaccination or nothing. "Government control" is not easy to brush aside after 250 days in lockdown. Even though we are 70% double-vaxxed, we must wear masks outside, and could lose jobs if not vaccinated. If not "government control" would you be willing to accept "over-zealous" at least? Or do you stick with "greater good" and "necessary public health measures"?
tzs 5y ago
> Of course, some countries have seen far more deaths than others, but the statistics make it pretty clear this is because their populations are older and have more comorbidities The statistics you cited make clear they are correlated. You can't infer causation without first considering why those countries have fewer comorbidities. E.g., > > The report found that every country where less than 40% of the population was overweight had a low Covid-19 death rate of no more than 10 people per 100,000. It could be that the reason they have less overweight people is that they are more prone to follow health and nutrition advice in general, and this same propensity led them to also follow advice on avoiding COVID. Looking at a US obesity rate map, there is reasonable correlation between high obesity rate states and states for which COVID has had high second and third wave death rates. But there is also a good correlation between high death rate states and states where people are lax in taking preventative measures. That seems to be better than the obesity rate correlation. Florida, for example, is noticeably lower on obesity than the rest of the South, being more in line with most of the Northeast and the Northwest but is a leader in not taking COVID preventative measures, and has had terrible second and third waves compared to states with comparable obesity rates.
- lborsato 5y ago
  But they are higher in elderly, an even higher correlation.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  > But there is also a good correlation between high death rate states and states where people are lax in taking preventative measures. That seems to be better than the obesity rate correlation. Florida, for example, is noticeably lower on obesity than the rest of the South, being more in line with most of the Northeast and the Northwest but is a leader in not taking COVID preventative measures, and has had terrible second and third waves compared to states with comparable obesity rates. A better correlation according to who? According to one report, the two greatest risk factors for COVID are age and weight[1]. Over 20% of the population in Florida is 65+, the second highest percentage in the nation, and Florida also happens to be the third most populous. Florida isn't an outlier if you look at the age distribution of deaths: over 77% of deaths are in those 65+. [1] https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-and-Obesity-The-2021-Atlas.pdf https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-an... [2] https://theconversation.com/severe-covid-in-young-people-can-mostly-be-explained-by-obesity-new-study-159072 https://theconversation.com/severe-covid-in-young-people-can...

iab 5y ago

Fortunately, you can't catch obesity from being in close contact with other obese people. Or take it home, and transmit it to younger and/or more at-risk people; Cheeseburgers don't work that way. More vaccinations mean better protection for everybody - this is the whole point.

ekianjo 5y ago
> More vaccinations mean better protection for everybody You don't need children to be protected for example with vaccines because they do not suffer from COVID19-related disease. That's a fact.
- justin66 5y ago
  All untrue. Children suffer from COVID 19 and in the United States account for over 1% of COVID 19 related hospitalizations. It's extremely rare that they die from it, but that's not what you wrote. More to the OP's point regarding vaccination protecting everybody, vaccination reduces the odds children will spread the virus if they catch it.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    > More to the OP's point regarding vaccination protecting everybody, vaccination reduces the odds children will spread the virus if they catch it. Factually wrong. Vaccinated people carry just as much viral load as others when they are exposed to the virus. Already been proven in multiple publications. > Children suffer from COVID 19 and in the United States account for over 1% of COVID 19 related hospitalizations. Children of what age, and suffering of what comorbidities please?
    - justin66 5y ago
      Yeesh. I don’t know about “proof” but the paper that came just this month from UC Davis vis a vis viral load among the vaccinated is sobering. I just saw it this morning. I don’t understand why one would view the presence of comorbidities as a reason to say what you said above, as if those people do not exist. There might be a case that a highly resource constrained society would want to limit vaccination among children to those with comorbidities.
- iab 5y ago
  That’s a fact, in the same way that up is the same as down
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> More vaccinations mean better protection for everybody - this is the whole point. One can agree with that while at the same time acknowledging that the vaccines aren't anywhere near 100% protective. The science says that neutralizing antibodies that are produced after vaccination wane quickly (in months) and vaccinated individuals can still get and transmit the virus. And guess what? The serious breakthrough cases appear to be happening most often in the very groups of people who are most at risk when unvaccinated -- the immunocompromised, the elderly, the overweight and obese, and the diabetic. In short, everyone who is SARS-CoV-2 naive should seriously consider getting vaccinated if they haven't been already because it generally provides strong protection against hospitalization and death, but when assessing individual risk, let's not pretend that the risk of severe outcomes is equal in all people. COVID is an opportunity to talk about metabolic health that we're sadly largely missing.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > COVID is an opportunity to talk about metabolic health that we're sadly largely missing. Exactly, instead of just reporting "deaths", we should be reporting "death by multiple comorbidities" in a matrix form, if we even slightly cared about the science one bit. But no, the media and politicians are just interested in controlling the narrative that it kills everyone randomly.
  - iab 5y ago
    Yes, people distorting things to suit their agenda. Your comments, for example.
exodust 5y ago
> Cheeseburgers don't work that way. No, but you can't completely exclude the manipulative effects of communal eating habits. You can't exclude the multi-billion dollar tactics to promote, associate, tempt, entice and feed children, adults and families with fast food. Nor can you exclude the actual food, including portion size, sugar content, and cost/value from having a "transmission" effect of hooking vulnerable people on convenient, cheap, endlessly available junk food. All repeatedly validated via communal eating habits, symbols, signs and billboard displayed everywhere. Imprints of these messages become part of your brain's neural network over years. Cheeseburgers don't work like the virus, but you can wake up one day and realize you've consumed 50 kilograms of cheeseburgers, fries and coke in the last year, and wonder how the hell that happened and why you're now in the high risk category.
- iab 5y ago
  This is true, and irrelevant. You can’t vaccinate against the spread of obesity, which is what we are talking about
  - exodust 5y ago
    It's not irrelevant. Obesity is an epidemic. "One of today’s most blatantly visible – yet most neglected – public health problems" according to the WHO. Someone above pointed out to you that the majority of COVID deaths are in specific populations -- the elderly, the obese, the diabetic, and that "maybe we should think about that", which you replied with "you can't vaccinate against obesity". Vaccination is just one way to deal with an epidemic. The WHO coined "globesity" to describe the escalating global epidemic "taking over many parts of the world". "Its health consequences range from increased risk of premature death to serious chronic conditions that reduce the overall quality of life." https://www.who.int/activities/controlling-the-global-obesity-epidemic https://www.who.int/activities/controlling-the-global-obesit...
    - iab 5y ago
      It is irrelevant to the discussion of vaccines, of which this one. Or do you believe we can vaccinate against obesity, because I am starting to think you do

dools 5y ago

The implication of the OP is that 1% is nothing to worry about. I’m putting it in terms that may illustrate just how big that risk is compared to other areas where we wouldn’t accept those risks. The implication of your post is that 1% of people dying isn’t an issue so long as they are old or fat. But anyway let’s take your statistic of 10 people per 100,000. Now imagine a sports venue where every 5 games 10 people died of food poisoning but far more got really sick and some even required hospitalisation. Would you choose to eat the food at that venue when you went there?

ekianjo 5y ago
> Now imagine a sports venue where every 5 games 10 people died of food poisoning but far more got really sick and some even required hospitalisation. Would you choose to eat the food at that venue when you went there? Now imagine driving. You see where your line of reasoning does not make sense anymore? Everything we do in life carries risks.
- victorhooi 5y ago
  Right, and imagine if somebody invented a simple injection that reduced road deaths...how many people do you think would be interested in this? Do you have any idea how many millions of dollars car companies invest every year into making cars marginally safer? Even if you somehow assume everybody working at a car company is somehow immoral - imagine the profit motive if they invented a car that reduced your risk of dying by 75%? People would be clamouring to license the technology. Yes, we all want to drive, but if you could let us still drive, and be safer... The amount of crazy conspiracy theories around COVID, and how it's about government control, or big pharma is mind-boggling. It's a pandemic - we've had them before, except this time, we have science, and invested billions of dollars into research to get a vaccine. Sure, it's not 100% effective, but by this point in time, we have a fairly good idea that it's benefits heavily outweigh the risks across the population. And the vaccine is free...
  - exodust 5y ago
    > imagine if somebody invented a simple injection that reduced road deaths...how many people do you think would be interested in this? Good to see a road safety analogy that doesn't replace injections with seat belts or speeding signs. But the injection would not be popular if it were mandated for all drivers. Even for those not at high risk at becoming drowsy, or whatever the injection addresses to reduce deaths. Particularly if more than one injection was required, and further boosters after that, with imperfect protection, and special certificates needed. People would resist. > The amount of crazy conspiracy theories around COVID, and how it's about government control... Yes there's some over-cooked conspiracies. But in Australia, our state government has mandated the vaccine for more than a million workers. Office workers, all workers not working from home. Plus no entry to cafes, haircuts etc. Everyone must carry proof of vaccination, preferably via the government's app. There is no option to get a negative test and visit your work or other places. There is no option for proof of natural immunity. It's vaccination or nothing. "Government control" is not easy to brush aside after 250 days in lockdown. Even though we are 70% double-vaxxed, we must wear masks outside, and could lose jobs if not vaccinated. If not "government control" would you be willing to accept "over-zealous" at least? Or do you stick with "greater good" and "necessary public health measures"?

tzs 5y ago

> Of course, some countries have seen far more deaths than others, but the statistics make it pretty clear this is because their populations are older and have more comorbidities The statistics you cited make clear they are correlated. You can't infer causation without first considering why those countries have fewer comorbidities. E.g., > > The report found that every country where less than 40% of the population was overweight had a low Covid-19 death rate of no more than 10 people per 100,000. It could be that the reason they have less overweight people is that they are more prone to follow health and nutrition advice in general, and this same propensity led them to also follow advice on avoiding COVID. Looking at a US obesity rate map, there is reasonable correlation between high obesity rate states and states for which COVID has had high second and third wave death rates. But there is also a good correlation between high death rate states and states where people are lax in taking preventative measures. That seems to be better than the obesity rate correlation. Florida, for example, is noticeably lower on obesity than the rest of the South, being more in line with most of the Northeast and the Northwest but is a leader in not taking COVID preventative measures, and has had terrible second and third waves compared to states with comparable obesity rates.

lborsato 5y ago
But they are higher in elderly, an even higher correlation.
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> But there is also a good correlation between high death rate states and states where people are lax in taking preventative measures. That seems to be better than the obesity rate correlation. Florida, for example, is noticeably lower on obesity than the rest of the South, being more in line with most of the Northeast and the Northwest but is a leader in not taking COVID preventative measures, and has had terrible second and third waves compared to states with comparable obesity rates. A better correlation according to who? According to one report, the two greatest risk factors for COVID are age and weight[1]. Over 20% of the population in Florida is 65+, the second highest percentage in the nation, and Florida also happens to be the third most populous. Florida isn't an outlier if you look at the age distribution of deaths: over 77% of deaths are in those 65+. [1] https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-and-Obesity-The-2021-Atlas.pdf https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-an... [2] https://theconversation.com/severe-covid-in-young-people-can-mostly-be-explained-by-obesity-new-study-159072 https://theconversation.com/severe-covid-in-young-people-can...