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> it seems that the golden days for bootcamp graduates and self-taught devs are over. Going to a bootcamp (or being self taught) and getting a job at big tech

by jopsen 5y ago

> it seems that the golden days for bootcamp graduates and self-taught devs are over. Going to a bootcamp (or being self taught) and getting a job at big tech was probably never easy. Breaking into those jobs is easiest if you go through the internship pipeline (which starts at a university). Also let's not pretend that a bootcamp compares to a 3-5 year CS degree. Don't get me wrong I think there are lots of jobs where bootcamp training is more than enough. But most CS graduates will struggle with the kind of dynamic programming questions you risk getting asked at a job interview with big tech. (I know I struggled) So it's IMO no surprise if bootcamp graduates gets filtered out on questions like amortized complexity, big-O, computability, dynamic programming, or computer architecture questions.

austincheney 5y ago
I had absolutely no problem starting my career at a major tech company as a self taught developer. The severely disadvantaged were actually the CS grads. They really wanted everything to look like OOP Java and until somebody mentored them otherwise their code was either verbose Java or (if not writing Java language) some kind of mysterious curse. The big employers preferred to hire CS grads to write Java even if it’s garbage because they were easy to find and you knew what you were getting.
- rhines 5y ago
  In my experience, the worst CS grads are worse than the worst bootcamp grads, but the best CS grads are better than the best bootcamp grads. Bootcamps self-select for people who actually tend to have some interest, and force them to learn to graduate. So all bootcamp grads (or at least those from decent bootcamps) learn a decent amount during the bootcamp. University often gets people who are just there for the degree. When I was in university I marked for many classes, and also helped students, and there are many people who simply have no interest in the material and do not learn a thing. They can still graduate by doing the minimum amount of prep for tests, relying on others for projects and assignments, and cheating. However, university is also a 4 year long process where you can choose to take challenging courses in a variety of subjects, pursue cutting-edge research projects, and do whatever else you want in your free time. A motivated university student can graduate with not only what they learned in class, but accumulated knowledge from the books they read, courses they took, and projects they worked on outside of class. Plus a deep understanding of all the theory and such covered in class. Which isn't to say they're better in any sort of judgemental sense - give a bootcamp grad another 3.5 years purely dedicated to learning, and they'd be just as capable. Unfortunately, relatively few people actually make the most of their time in university, or even come close. (At least, in terms of learning - perhaps they value other things more, which is fine, but we're speaking of employable skills.) Maybe 10% of students at my university graduated with a level of skill equal to or better than a motivated bootcamp grad.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    Self-taught does not suggest or imply boot camp.
    - rhines 5y ago
      Very true, was looking at the GP which was comparing bootcamps to college, and maintaining that thread. May not apply to the parent who did not mention bootcamps.
adrr 5y ago
Self taught is easy. I actually prioritize self taught programmers over someone with a CS degree. Someone who taught themselves c++ for fun usually understands the concepts. College grads it is really hit or miss. There’s that fizz buzz thing that gets brought up all the time.
- jopsen 5y ago
  > College grads it is really hit or miss Whether they can code or not, I bet :) But self taught often runs short when you get into theoretical stuff... Then again most CS grads won't recall any of that.. It depends what you do, but if someone is implementing array types it's bad not to know about amortized complexity. Then again, most people rarely implement arrays :) At the end of the day, the best you can do is aim to have good people from a variety backgrounds.

by jopsen 5y ago

austincheney 5y ago

I had absolutely no problem starting my career at a major tech company as a self taught developer. The severely disadvantaged were actually the CS grads. They really wanted everything to look like OOP Java and until somebody mentored them otherwise their code was either verbose Java or (if not writing Java language) some kind of mysterious curse. The big employers preferred to hire CS grads to write Java even if it’s garbage because they were easy to find and you knew what you were getting.

rhines 5y ago
In my experience, the worst CS grads are worse than the worst bootcamp grads, but the best CS grads are better than the best bootcamp grads. Bootcamps self-select for people who actually tend to have some interest, and force them to learn to graduate. So all bootcamp grads (or at least those from decent bootcamps) learn a decent amount during the bootcamp. University often gets people who are just there for the degree. When I was in university I marked for many classes, and also helped students, and there are many people who simply have no interest in the material and do not learn a thing. They can still graduate by doing the minimum amount of prep for tests, relying on others for projects and assignments, and cheating. However, university is also a 4 year long process where you can choose to take challenging courses in a variety of subjects, pursue cutting-edge research projects, and do whatever else you want in your free time. A motivated university student can graduate with not only what they learned in class, but accumulated knowledge from the books they read, courses they took, and projects they worked on outside of class. Plus a deep understanding of all the theory and such covered in class. Which isn't to say they're better in any sort of judgemental sense - give a bootcamp grad another 3.5 years purely dedicated to learning, and they'd be just as capable. Unfortunately, relatively few people actually make the most of their time in university, or even come close. (At least, in terms of learning - perhaps they value other things more, which is fine, but we're speaking of employable skills.) Maybe 10% of students at my university graduated with a level of skill equal to or better than a motivated bootcamp grad.
- austincheney 5y ago
  Self-taught does not suggest or imply boot camp.
  - rhines 5y ago
    Very true, was looking at the GP which was comparing bootcamps to college, and maintaining that thread. May not apply to the parent who did not mention bootcamps.

adrr 5y ago

Self taught is easy. I actually prioritize self taught programmers over someone with a CS degree. Someone who taught themselves c++ for fun usually understands the concepts. College grads it is really hit or miss. There’s that fizz buzz thing that gets brought up all the time.

jopsen 5y ago
> College grads it is really hit or miss Whether they can code or not, I bet :) But self taught often runs short when you get into theoretical stuff... Then again most CS grads won't recall any of that.. It depends what you do, but if someone is implementing array types it's bad not to know about amortized complexity. Then again, most people rarely implement arrays :) At the end of the day, the best you can do is aim to have good people from a variety backgrounds.