4 ms·

At least half, maybe the majority of our engineers are junior. We do reject the majority of applicants however. That’s usually because of a bad resume (seriousl

At least half, maybe the majority of our engineers are junior. We do reject the majority of applicants however. That’s usually because of a bad resume (seriously, not everyone can land a SWE internship, but at least show food service experience or something). In the interviews, many candidates either lack basic coding or problem solving skills. I don’t even ask leetcode questions, and only a minority of folks can answer them (and I allow them to look up reference material online).

mattlondon 5y ago
For a junior, "unrelated" work experience all counts IMHO. You can't ding some just starting out in a first role because they haven't already had a job other than flipping burgers. At least someone with unrelated experience has shown that they have some experience of holding down a job and the responsibility that goes with it, and can apply themselves doing something mindless if they have to (most intern or junior candidates I interview these days all want to solve cancer with machine learning on day 1 in their role - someone without a real-world reality-check who has only done a series of silver-spoon elite internships might get disgruntled when they are given the shit work as a junior) Likewise some people cannot afford internships - they need to get paying work to pay bills and can't have the luxury of doing unpaid/expenses-only/etc work, or have other reasons like care responsibilities etc. With respect, please check your biases and give people a chance. </manager at a BigCo that also rejects huge numbers of applicants>
- curiousllama 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure that comment is saying the red flag is NOT having an unrelated job (given they don’t have tech experience, which many understandably won’t). Def ambiguous tho
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    Yeah that’s what I meant. You need some sort of work experience. Flipping burgers, doing tech support or a SWE intern. Having no experience is the red flag.
- anthuswilliams 5y ago
  I interpreted the parent's post to mean they are encountering resumes which list neither internships NOR unrelated work experience.
- _fat_santa 5y ago
  When I was in college I was asked to review a few resume's for some fellow students. A number of the resume's I saw that no work experience whatsoever. I remember asking the students like hey did you forget to include your work experience or something and they all told me that they basically never had a job before, no flipping burgers, no internship, nada. It sounds unbelievable but it happens, alot. It's one thing when all your experience so far has been flipping burgers or driving Uber, but it's another when they literally have never had a job their entire life.
  - secondaryacct 5y ago
    Yeah my parents kicked me into work at 14 up to 18 just for the sake of understanding what it is and it was invaluable in my first interview for a big boy job: the fact I started at 14 to earn some money and was proud of it and could even give recommendations to deal with clients (worked in an auction store carrying furniture for people every weekend of my teenage years despite having rich parents) seriously impressed the boss and all his worries about me not coming from a top uni whatever were compensated by my understanding of his own suffering. As a junior, the best best way to pass an interview is understanding you're a cost and accepting experience is part of the pay. Any sign of you expecting to be "paid your due" or "resisting undue exploitation" is an immediate ulcer inducing stress for the hiring person "omg he knows nothing, will take months to start producing above his cost, and he's already talking like a diva". Leave after 6 months if you must, telling the boss you cant possibly survive
bsder 5y ago
> seriously, a resume with no internship or even unrelated work like food service is a red flag I'm going to ding this ... hard. First and most importantly: some students I knew were trying to accelerate their path through college. They didn't want to rack up huge loans and wanted out ASAP to start making money. This group included both right out of high school as well as returning non-traditional students. They simply didn't have time for employment. And, with Covid, I suspect that this cohort is going to have a big boost. Second: some students are helping take care of their family and going to college is enough of a time struggle. You are knocking this group out--and my experience suggests that a lot of them are female. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is a good example from this class. Third: personally, my experience suggests that those working "food service" jobs, specifically, are sub par. This applies only to that group and not other "customer service" roles (like retail sales). "Food service" is a time consuming job with weak wages and unstable hours dealing with a psychologically draining public cohort. Anyone with a brain wired for programming wants out of that kind of job post haste and has some level of skill to do so. However, even then, I try not to let prior experience color my perceptions of junior engineers and programmers. Junior engineers need to be "teachable" more than anything else. Generally, what I look for is what they absorbed from one of their teachers that isn't in the book. Good teachers are always giving off a bag of pearls of wisdom beyond the scope of the class. Students in my classes got exposed to automated testing, source control, and an IDE. Often I'd give out epigrams of wisdom "70% of the time use a hash table; 30% of the time use a vector; 0.01% of the time ask somebody what you should be using instead when those don't work." Good programmers and engineers latch onto something out of that bag because they find it interesting. That's what you're looking for in an interview as it signifies they can be taught and actually want to do this. I find this is probably more important even than absolute GPA. > I don’t even ask leetcode questions, and only a minority of folks can answer them (and I allow them to look up reference material online). Sadly, this does seem to be true for the majority of junior folks. They just can't code. I don't really know how you get out of a degree program without that, but they somehow do. I suspect this is the simple reason why so many companies just go after the "elite" schools--you can't escape from those programs without having at least a minimum level of competence at coding.
- jdavis703 5y ago
culopatin 5y ago
I’m changing careers in my late 20s. I have a pretty solid experience in IT and a BROAD background. What would that look like to you if I were to be applying as an intern? I’m not sure if being experienced is a pro or a con.
- alephu5 5y ago
  I think it's an advantage because you're more likely to have a good work ethic and understand business then someone from an academic stream.
  - google234123 5y ago
    What does understanding business have to do with a software engineering internship?
    - culopatin 5y ago
      I’ll flip the question. Why do you think it would be a negative thing? Why would having that knowledge hurt?

mattlondon 5y ago

For a junior, "unrelated" work experience all counts IMHO. You can't ding some just starting out in a first role because they haven't already had a job other than flipping burgers. At least someone with unrelated experience has shown that they have some experience of holding down a job and the responsibility that goes with it, and can apply themselves doing something mindless if they have to (most intern or junior candidates I interview these days all want to solve cancer with machine learning on day 1 in their role - someone without a real-world reality-check who has only done a series of silver-spoon elite internships might get disgruntled when they are given the shit work as a junior) Likewise some people cannot afford internships - they need to get paying work to pay bills and can't have the luxury of doing unpaid/expenses-only/etc work, or have other reasons like care responsibilities etc. With respect, please check your biases and give people a chance. </manager at a BigCo that also rejects huge numbers of applicants>

curiousllama 5y ago
I’m pretty sure that comment is saying the red flag is NOT having an unrelated job (given they don’t have tech experience, which many understandably won’t). Def ambiguous tho
- jdavis703 5y ago
  Yeah that’s what I meant. You need some sort of work experience. Flipping burgers, doing tech support or a SWE intern. Having no experience is the red flag.
anthuswilliams 5y ago
I interpreted the parent's post to mean they are encountering resumes which list neither internships NOR unrelated work experience.
_fat_santa 5y ago
When I was in college I was asked to review a few resume's for some fellow students. A number of the resume's I saw that no work experience whatsoever. I remember asking the students like hey did you forget to include your work experience or something and they all told me that they basically never had a job before, no flipping burgers, no internship, nada. It sounds unbelievable but it happens, alot. It's one thing when all your experience so far has been flipping burgers or driving Uber, but it's another when they literally have never had a job their entire life.
- secondaryacct 5y ago
  Yeah my parents kicked me into work at 14 up to 18 just for the sake of understanding what it is and it was invaluable in my first interview for a big boy job: the fact I started at 14 to earn some money and was proud of it and could even give recommendations to deal with clients (worked in an auction store carrying furniture for people every weekend of my teenage years despite having rich parents) seriously impressed the boss and all his worries about me not coming from a top uni whatever were compensated by my understanding of his own suffering. As a junior, the best best way to pass an interview is understanding you're a cost and accepting experience is part of the pay. Any sign of you expecting to be "paid your due" or "resisting undue exploitation" is an immediate ulcer inducing stress for the hiring person "omg he knows nothing, will take months to start producing above his cost, and he's already talking like a diva". Leave after 6 months if you must, telling the boss you cant possibly survive

bsder 5y ago

> seriously, a resume with no internship or even unrelated work like food service is a red flag I'm going to ding this ... hard. First and most importantly: some students I knew were trying to accelerate their path through college. They didn't want to rack up huge loans and wanted out ASAP to start making money. This group included both right out of high school as well as returning non-traditional students. They simply didn't have time for employment. And, with Covid, I suspect that this cohort is going to have a big boost. Second: some students are helping take care of their family and going to college is enough of a time struggle. You are knocking this group out--and my experience suggests that a lot of them are female. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is a good example from this class. Third: personally, my experience suggests that those working "food service" jobs, specifically, are sub par. This applies only to that group and not other "customer service" roles (like retail sales). "Food service" is a time consuming job with weak wages and unstable hours dealing with a psychologically draining public cohort. Anyone with a brain wired for programming wants out of that kind of job post haste and has some level of skill to do so. However, even then, I try not to let prior experience color my perceptions of junior engineers and programmers. Junior engineers need to be "teachable" more than anything else. Generally, what I look for is what they absorbed from one of their teachers that isn't in the book. Good teachers are always giving off a bag of pearls of wisdom beyond the scope of the class. Students in my classes got exposed to automated testing, source control, and an IDE. Often I'd give out epigrams of wisdom "70% of the time use a hash table; 30% of the time use a vector; 0.01% of the time ask somebody what you should be using instead when those don't work." Good programmers and engineers latch onto something out of that bag because they find it interesting. That's what you're looking for in an interview as it signifies they can be taught and actually want to do this. I find this is probably more important even than absolute GPA. > I don’t even ask leetcode questions, and only a minority of folks can answer them (and I allow them to look up reference material online). Sadly, this does seem to be true for the majority of junior folks. They just can't code. I don't really know how you get out of a degree program without that, but they somehow do. I suspect this is the simple reason why so many companies just go after the "elite" schools--you can't escape from those programs without having at least a minimum level of competence at coding.

jdavis703 5y ago

culopatin 5y ago

I’m changing careers in my late 20s. I have a pretty solid experience in IT and a BROAD background. What would that look like to you if I were to be applying as an intern? I’m not sure if being experienced is a pro or a con.

alephu5 5y ago
I think it's an advantage because you're more likely to have a good work ethic and understand business then someone from an academic stream.
- google234123 5y ago
  What does understanding business have to do with a software engineering internship?
  - culopatin 5y ago
    I’ll flip the question. Why do you think it would be a negative thing? Why would having that knowledge hurt?