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You are exhibiting google's mistake, caused by over educated people with zero real experience thinking they know better. Or, I should correct that - some code t

You are exhibiting google's mistake, caused by over educated people with zero real experience thinking they know better. Or, I should correct that - some code they wrote knows better than the complex brain of the actual person. This results in "AI" (big if/then loop) trying to figure it out, and completely blocking any input from the customer. Here's the issue with "inferred from other activity." You know how you can find out? Give the customer a way to tell you. And no - you cannot "infer from other activity." >Skipping a song after less then 20 seconds for example can train a model... ..to be wrong. You know when I usually skip a song after 20 seconds? When I've heard it too much, or just heard it on youtube on my laptop an hour ago. In a couple of days I'll want to hear it again. The reason I heard it too much, is I like the song. Your AI though - if I skip this favorite song of mine a couple of times, will now block it and all other songs like it. The literal opposite of what I want. What this results in, is you have an inferior product, your customers leave, then you leave and go screw up another company's product without ever learning your lesson.

djhn 5y ago
I don't disagree with you but that last bit was quite unnecessary.
- soylentnewsorg 5y ago
  That last part is the most important point - the main point. Your comment shows the exact issue as the "you don't need a dislike button because our AI knows better." You read my post, you read all the comments on here with users either jumping through hoops or ditching the product, you read the comment like what I replied to saying "we know what you need better than you do." That last bit is a person thinking some crap code they wrote can figure out why someone doesn't want to listen to a song at a particular time. They ignore all the inputs into that decision - how tired they are, what day they had, are they angry at something, have they heard it on another medium recently. Then ignore all that data they don't have, and have the AI make the decision: did you skip after 20 seconds? If you did, let's cut this genre out of your playlist. This little thing, destroyed spotify's recommendation product. The people in charge of this, are going to destroy everything they touch, because they think their little piece of code, is smarter than the user, about what the user wants. You know, because the user can't code. People making these decisions - well all I can say is I've met them. I've been personal friends with some. They have been passed up for jobs when I get called for a reference check. Because once they're on your team, they'll destroy your product, so they can feel personally superior. So that last part is very necessary, because it's an extremely serious issue, exactly as I put it. But in your opinion it's not, so let's cut that part out because it's not necessary for what I was saying. Because you know better than me what I was trying to say. <dislike>
- spurgu 5y ago
  Not necessarily, if he otherwise were to leave and go screw up another company's product without ever learning his lesson.
- onecommentman 5y ago
  Some people get very, um, engaged with the universe of sound they wish to live in and have much stronger opinions about that than, say, world hunger. It directly impacts their experienced quality of life, and is one of the few cultural constants they retain over the course of their entire life. Lovers, employment, friends come and go but the music remains. I may be one of them myself. Profanity generally results when it is mucked around with. Count yourself lucky the opinion was expressed as mildly as it was. I will not permit a company/algorithm to directly determine what I want to hear. I’m old enough to know about the Payola scams with radio DJs to trust anyone with that authority. My solution: buy CDs or vinyl, find a group of like-minded friends to share music recommendations (email newsletters would work, perhaps even…physical interaction), read music journalism, buy music online and build your personal library. Just the music on my hard drive, all directly and legally purchased, would play continuously half a year without repeats. I use/used the Apple iTunes others-have-bought recommendations for tracks related to tracks I’d purchase. Invaluable for discovering alternative artists by someone who is nowhere near the target age demographic for that sort of music. And you buy the flippin’ track and you know the artist/rights holder is directly getting a reasonable number of pennies from that transaction. Worst case — buy CDs and get a CD changer. New ones are still being sold. You can still get the 300-400 CD units used. No fans are more rabid than classical music fans, and they are still ecstatically buying huge boxed sets of CDs. They are expecting to listen to these tracks for decades, and there is wisdom there.
notyourwork 5y ago
> What this results in, is you have an inferior product, your customers leave, then you leave and go screw up another company's product without ever learning your lesson. I'm not sure what you're suggesting and I don't need to qualify my experience in the software industry or within the domain of recommenders and personalization.
- soylentnewsorg 5y ago
  I did not suggest anything. I very clearly stated what I stated, in plain English that is very easy to understand. Your qualifications are irrelevant. Your point of view on the issue we are discussing is wrong for long-term product success, and destroys the hard work others have put into the idea, in order to feel personally superior to your users. I don't know how more plainly I can put it for you if you had trouble understanding that. I do believe however that not understanding something, is not something that has ever prevented you from action or strong and wrong opinions on a subject matter.
  - notyourwork 5y ago
    You’re speaking as if you work beside me and have a clue about anything in the music industry. There’s a reason Spotify doesn’t but uses to have dislike buttons more accessible. I’m not sure why you are disagreeing with me but there’s no need to speak down to someone because of different perspective. I have real world data and work in recommenders I’m not sure what your background is.
    - henriquez 5y ago
      You have real world data but it’s not at all clear that you’ve been interpreting it correctly.
      - notyourwork 5y ago
        It is also not clear that your opinion is grounded in reality. Not sure what more to say.

djhn 5y ago

I don't disagree with you but that last bit was quite unnecessary.

soylentnewsorg 5y ago
That last part is the most important point - the main point. Your comment shows the exact issue as the "you don't need a dislike button because our AI knows better." You read my post, you read all the comments on here with users either jumping through hoops or ditching the product, you read the comment like what I replied to saying "we know what you need better than you do." That last bit is a person thinking some crap code they wrote can figure out why someone doesn't want to listen to a song at a particular time. They ignore all the inputs into that decision - how tired they are, what day they had, are they angry at something, have they heard it on another medium recently. Then ignore all that data they don't have, and have the AI make the decision: did you skip after 20 seconds? If you did, let's cut this genre out of your playlist. This little thing, destroyed spotify's recommendation product. The people in charge of this, are going to destroy everything they touch, because they think their little piece of code, is smarter than the user, about what the user wants. You know, because the user can't code. People making these decisions - well all I can say is I've met them. I've been personal friends with some. They have been passed up for jobs when I get called for a reference check. Because once they're on your team, they'll destroy your product, so they can feel personally superior. So that last part is very necessary, because it's an extremely serious issue, exactly as I put it. But in your opinion it's not, so let's cut that part out because it's not necessary for what I was saying. Because you know better than me what I was trying to say. <dislike>
spurgu 5y ago
Not necessarily, if he otherwise were to leave and go screw up another company's product without ever learning his lesson.
onecommentman 5y ago
Some people get very, um, engaged with the universe of sound they wish to live in and have much stronger opinions about that than, say, world hunger. It directly impacts their experienced quality of life, and is one of the few cultural constants they retain over the course of their entire life. Lovers, employment, friends come and go but the music remains. I may be one of them myself. Profanity generally results when it is mucked around with. Count yourself lucky the opinion was expressed as mildly as it was. I will not permit a company/algorithm to directly determine what I want to hear. I’m old enough to know about the Payola scams with radio DJs to trust anyone with that authority. My solution: buy CDs or vinyl, find a group of like-minded friends to share music recommendations (email newsletters would work, perhaps even…physical interaction), read music journalism, buy music online and build your personal library. Just the music on my hard drive, all directly and legally purchased, would play continuously half a year without repeats. I use/used the Apple iTunes others-have-bought recommendations for tracks related to tracks I’d purchase. Invaluable for discovering alternative artists by someone who is nowhere near the target age demographic for that sort of music. And you buy the flippin’ track and you know the artist/rights holder is directly getting a reasonable number of pennies from that transaction. Worst case — buy CDs and get a CD changer. New ones are still being sold. You can still get the 300-400 CD units used. No fans are more rabid than classical music fans, and they are still ecstatically buying huge boxed sets of CDs. They are expecting to listen to these tracks for decades, and there is wisdom there.

notyourwork 5y ago

> What this results in, is you have an inferior product, your customers leave, then you leave and go screw up another company's product without ever learning your lesson. I'm not sure what you're suggesting and I don't need to qualify my experience in the software industry or within the domain of recommenders and personalization.

soylentnewsorg 5y ago
I did not suggest anything. I very clearly stated what I stated, in plain English that is very easy to understand. Your qualifications are irrelevant. Your point of view on the issue we are discussing is wrong for long-term product success, and destroys the hard work others have put into the idea, in order to feel personally superior to your users. I don't know how more plainly I can put it for you if you had trouble understanding that. I do believe however that not understanding something, is not something that has ever prevented you from action or strong and wrong opinions on a subject matter.
- notyourwork 5y ago
  You’re speaking as if you work beside me and have a clue about anything in the music industry. There’s a reason Spotify doesn’t but uses to have dislike buttons more accessible. I’m not sure why you are disagreeing with me but there’s no need to speak down to someone because of different perspective. I have real world data and work in recommenders I’m not sure what your background is.
  - henriquez 5y ago
    You have real world data but it’s not at all clear that you’ve been interpreting it correctly.
    - notyourwork 5y ago
      It is also not clear that your opinion is grounded in reality. Not sure what more to say.