4 ms·

Without specifics I cannot guess as to your specific case but in general customer's just do not use dislike buttons. So exposing them isn't a value add and usua

Without specifics I cannot guess as to your specific case but in general customer's just do not use dislike buttons. So exposing them isn't a value add and usually a UI clutter that most customer's have no use for and won't use. In general, you had to be doing something to be getting recommendations so there is some action that when most customer's do demonstrates a high probability that you will like some genre and it just so happens you don't.

chillingeffect 5y ago
What industry just out of curiosity? I see dislikes used judiciously in youtube and reddit fwiw
- notyourwork 5y ago
  Music but I don't work for Spotify currently.
marginalia_nu 5y ago
> in general customer's just do not use dislike buttons. So exposing them isn't a value add and usually a UI clutter that most customer's have no use for and won't use. A feature does not need to be used often to be useful. Take a fire extinguisher for example. Going by this logic, since most people will never even touch a fire extinguisher and most of them are never actually used, we should get rid of them because they're a cause of clutter.
feanaro 5y ago
I must say your dismissal of this is rather annoying. Multiple users are telling you they are facing a real -- and completely obvious and predictable -- problem due to the feature not being available. In a comment section regarding research showing it would be an improvement to recommendations. Increased UI clutter due to a single extra icon is not a good nor sufficient argument for not including it.
- notyourwork 5y ago
  My dismissal is based on a many-million digit customer base and online real world data. Sorry if a few hackernews users feel they want a dislike button, most users don't and if you give to them most users don't use it. I don't mind disagreement but dismissing real world data from this industry is sort of silly to counter with 'because I want it you're wrong'.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    I'm not even saying you're wrong, I'm saying your argument for not including it for (at the very least) a sizeable minority is weak and somewhat silly.
    - notyourwork 5y ago
      What is a sizable minority aside from an oxymoron?
      - hulahoof 5y ago
        A sizeable minority is something that is still visible on a pie chart.
      - feanaro 5y ago
        A minority is anything that is not a majority (this is the definition I'm using). So a < 50% group can hopefully still be viewed as non-negligible, even though it is not the majority.
  - Oddskar 5y ago
    I disagree that your reasoning is entirely sound. It's a bit of an elitist point of view I suppose; but fundamentally I don't think all customers are created equally in terms of importance. One could even in this day and age call some of the more important ones "influencer" or something similar. While the general customer base might not be served by this feature, what if a subset of the customer base enjoys this feature to an extraordinary extent? Maybe it fixes a lot of problems they have with the service; and negates a lot of complaints they otherwise would have posted. Would it still not be the correct choice to "clutter the UI" with this? I don't think it's as easy of a choice like you're trying to make it. But I could also be jaded by the fact that Spotify for years has trying to pull me into listening to all kinds of odd European folk music that I have no interest in what-so-ever.
breakfastduck 5y ago
I absolutely love it when people working on a product tell their customers that they don't need a feature they're all asking for and that would clearly improve the experience, just because not everyone uses it all the time.
- simion314 5y ago
  > absolutely love it when people working on a product tell their customers that they don't need a feature they're all asking for and that would clearly improve the experience, just because not everyone uses it all the time. We need a name for this, personally I call it GNOME mentality but probably is bad name since most developers are not familiar with GNOME (though the file picker issue get on top HN a lot )
- notyourwork 5y ago
  > they're all asking for All is the flaw in your comment. One person does not imply all and data speaks for itself.
  - marginalia_nu 5y ago
    The data does not speak at all. You are drawing inferences based on the data, inferences of a type that are pretty easy to poke holes in by looking at the pretty large class of things rarely used but situationaly useful (often life saving). This type of bizarre logic makes me feel like I have to habitually use features even when they are not useful in order to protect them from UX designers in case I'm subject to some misguided A/B test.
    - breakfastduck 5y ago
      UX designers not sufficiently held in check by strong product teams are lethal.
    - notyourwork 5y ago
      > The data does not speak at all. What data are you referencing? I'm drawing conclusions based on data I have but I don't think you work for the same company as me so I'm not sure how you can speak to confidently about how wrong I am.
toofy 5y ago
Each of the comments that mirror yours illustrate a major problem we have in the tech sphere—assuming _we_ know better what the end user needs therefor we don’t listen to the actual user. In our defense, we’re very disconnected from the end users. I’ve done some work with a couple disaster organizations in the past and we continually get massive praise and thanks from the victims of these disasters. The actual victims have the same praise over and over again: Unlike the red cross, salvation army, and FEMA we actually ask them what they (the victims) need. We don’t assume they need water and and a tarp, we assume they know whether or not they already have those things. Often the victims need diapers, help with flood mold remidiation, a chainsaw to cut limbs from their street so they can get their cars out so they can go help the neighbors a few streets over etc…. They know what is prohibiting them from getting out to help others much better than we. When people are telling us what they need, we should listen to them and we should actively try to avoid our tendencies towards “I know better what you need.” I have a couple friends who work on recommendation algorithms full time and in their defense, they’re fully aware how terrible the recommendations are—I still get my music recommendations from friends, from the local music store employees, and friends who work in music venues—their recommendations are infinitely better.

chillingeffect 5y ago

What industry just out of curiosity? I see dislikes used judiciously in youtube and reddit fwiw

notyourwork 5y ago
Music but I don't work for Spotify currently.

marginalia_nu 5y ago

> in general customer's just do not use dislike buttons. So exposing them isn't a value add and usually a UI clutter that most customer's have no use for and won't use. A feature does not need to be used often to be useful. Take a fire extinguisher for example. Going by this logic, since most people will never even touch a fire extinguisher and most of them are never actually used, we should get rid of them because they're a cause of clutter.

feanaro 5y ago

I must say your dismissal of this is rather annoying. Multiple users are telling you they are facing a real -- and completely obvious and predictable -- problem due to the feature not being available. In a comment section regarding research showing it would be an improvement to recommendations. Increased UI clutter due to a single extra icon is not a good nor sufficient argument for not including it.

notyourwork 5y ago
My dismissal is based on a many-million digit customer base and online real world data. Sorry if a few hackernews users feel they want a dislike button, most users don't and if you give to them most users don't use it. I don't mind disagreement but dismissing real world data from this industry is sort of silly to counter with 'because I want it you're wrong'.
- feanaro 5y ago
  I'm not even saying you're wrong, I'm saying your argument for not including it for (at the very least) a sizeable minority is weak and somewhat silly.
  - notyourwork 5y ago
    What is a sizable minority aside from an oxymoron?
    - hulahoof 5y ago
      A sizeable minority is something that is still visible on a pie chart.
    - feanaro 5y ago
      A minority is anything that is not a majority (this is the definition I'm using). So a < 50% group can hopefully still be viewed as non-negligible, even though it is not the majority.
- Oddskar 5y ago
  I disagree that your reasoning is entirely sound. It's a bit of an elitist point of view I suppose; but fundamentally I don't think all customers are created equally in terms of importance. One could even in this day and age call some of the more important ones "influencer" or something similar. While the general customer base might not be served by this feature, what if a subset of the customer base enjoys this feature to an extraordinary extent? Maybe it fixes a lot of problems they have with the service; and negates a lot of complaints they otherwise would have posted. Would it still not be the correct choice to "clutter the UI" with this? I don't think it's as easy of a choice like you're trying to make it. But I could also be jaded by the fact that Spotify for years has trying to pull me into listening to all kinds of odd European folk music that I have no interest in what-so-ever.

breakfastduck 5y ago

I absolutely love it when people working on a product tell their customers that they don't need a feature they're all asking for and that would clearly improve the experience, just because not everyone uses it all the time.

simion314 5y ago
> absolutely love it when people working on a product tell their customers that they don't need a feature they're all asking for and that would clearly improve the experience, just because not everyone uses it all the time. We need a name for this, personally I call it GNOME mentality but probably is bad name since most developers are not familiar with GNOME (though the file picker issue get on top HN a lot )
notyourwork 5y ago
> they're all asking for All is the flaw in your comment. One person does not imply all and data speaks for itself.
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  The data does not speak at all. You are drawing inferences based on the data, inferences of a type that are pretty easy to poke holes in by looking at the pretty large class of things rarely used but situationaly useful (often life saving). This type of bizarre logic makes me feel like I have to habitually use features even when they are not useful in order to protect them from UX designers in case I'm subject to some misguided A/B test.
  - breakfastduck 5y ago
    UX designers not sufficiently held in check by strong product teams are lethal.
  - notyourwork 5y ago
    > The data does not speak at all. What data are you referencing? I'm drawing conclusions based on data I have but I don't think you work for the same company as me so I'm not sure how you can speak to confidently about how wrong I am.

toofy 5y ago

Each of the comments that mirror yours illustrate a major problem we have in the tech sphere—assuming _we_ know better what the end user needs therefor we don’t listen to the actual user. In our defense, we’re very disconnected from the end users. I’ve done some work with a couple disaster organizations in the past and we continually get massive praise and thanks from the victims of these disasters. The actual victims have the same praise over and over again: Unlike the red cross, salvation army, and FEMA we actually ask them what they (the victims) need. We don’t assume they need water and and a tarp, we assume they know whether or not they already have those things. Often the victims need diapers, help with flood mold remidiation, a chainsaw to cut limbs from their street so they can get their cars out so they can go help the neighbors a few streets over etc…. They know what is prohibiting them from getting out to help others much better than we. When people are telling us what they need, we should listen to them and we should actively try to avoid our tendencies towards “I know better what you need.” I have a couple friends who work on recommendation algorithms full time and in their defense, they’re fully aware how terrible the recommendations are—I still get my music recommendations from friends, from the local music store employees, and friends who work in music venues—their recommendations are infinitely better.