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A further alternative to heat pumps is hydrogen fired boilers. Heat pumps work well in well insulated houses, with large radiators, which aren't attributes of m

A further alternative to heat pumps is hydrogen fired boilers. Heat pumps work well in well insulated houses, with large radiators, which aren't attributes of much existing UK housing. Boiler manufacturers are already designing hydrogen boilers. The question is, how much existing infrastructure can be used to transport hydrogen. I think we should be able to get to 20% hydrogen at least sooner rather than later, which is being supported by modern boilers. https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/hydrogen https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/hydrogen

Glench 5y ago
Why do you say heat pumps only work in well insulated houses with large radiators? Heat pumps are ~3x as efficient as the best gas furnaces so why would you need a better insulated house? Also, the problem with hydrogen is how do you produce it? Probably with renewable energy, right? So why would you waste all that energy converting from renewable electricity to hydrogen then burning hydrogen (which is not super efficient anyway)? Might as well just use the renewables to power your heat pump. Plus, heat pumps already work at scale whereas hydrogen needs a lot more work before it's ready for primetime.
- heurisko 5y ago
  > Why do you say heat pumps only work in well insulated houses with large radiators? Because heat pumps operate at a lower flow temperature than boilers. Smaller radiators designed to operate at hotter temperatures won't bring your house up to the target heat temperature operating at lower temperatures. They often need replacing. [1] Trials of heat pumps in existing UK housing have found it difficult giving away heat pumps for free, because of all the extra work required for them to operate properly in the house. [2] > Heat pumps are ~3x as efficient as the best gas furnaces so why would you need a better insulated house? Heat pumps in comparison to conventional boilers are meant to be on all the time at a lower temperature, as they take a long time to bring a house up to target temperature. They depend on good insulation, otherwise the heat never accumulates, similar to if you leave a freezer door ajar, it will never freeze. > So why would you waste all that energy converting from renewable electricity to hydrogen then burning hydrogen (which is not super efficient anyway)? At times, renewable energy drives electricity prices negative. We haven't got many ways to store this when it happens, converting water to hydrogen would be a good candidate, which can be delivered using existing gas infrastructure. > Plus, heat pumps already work at scale Not in existing UK housing, which would require major changes (insulation, underfloor heating, larger radiators), before they work. [1] https://www.imsheatpumps.co.uk/blog/can-i-use-radiators-with-a-heat-pump/ https://www.imsheatpumps.co.uk/blog/can-i-use-radiators-with... [2] https://www.housingtoday.co.uk/news/major-challenges-in-persuading-homeowners-to-install-heat-pumps-government-admits/5112116.article https://www.housingtoday.co.uk/news/major-challenges-in-pers...
  - Glench 5y ago
    Yeah, so your argument assumes that retrofitting radiators with heat pumps is the only way to install. Not true! You left out mini-splits which efficiently heat rooms and have the added benefit of being less expensive and disruptive to homes than under-floor heating. The reality is that we don't have time to wait on unproven technologies like hydrogen boilers (which gas boiler companies are using to try to delay their inevitable demise). We don't have time to wait on an non-existing hydrogen infrastructure. Despite what you say, heat pumps are working at scale today around the world and individuals can go buy them now and successfully heat and cool their homes. But hey, I'm not a fundamentalist — whatever works! We need all solutions very fast in order to mitigate damage. If part of that is hydrogen then great! It just seems unlikely to scale at the required rate.
    - heurisko 5y ago
      > Yeah, so your argument assumes that retrofitting radiators with heat pumps is the only way to install It's not an argument, I'm just relaying what heat pump installers need to change in order for the pumps to work. The system also needs to provide hot water. > The reality is that we don't have time to wait on unproven technologies like hydrogen boilers They're not unproven, 20pc hydrogen ready boilers are being sold today. > Despite what you say, heat pumps are working at scale today around the world and individuals can go buy them now and successfully heat and cool their homes. That some people have used heat pumps to successfully heat their homes was never disputed. They're just not the panacea they are made out to be for UK housing.
fulafel 5y ago
For a poorly insulated house, it's better to fix the insulation than to do lossy and expensive conversion to/from hydrogen, not to mention investment in storage or transport, when at the end of the day the expensive hydrogen will be mostly wasted due to lack of insulation (costing yet more of the expensive hydrogen).
- heurisko 5y ago
  Conversion to hydrogen need not be expensive. In the UK sometimes electricity prices turn negative on very windy days, and hydrogen can be stored. Pilot schemes are already using hydrogen blend with gas using existing infrastructure. [1] I've nothing against more insulation, but the UK has a lot of old housing, which isn't always easy to insulate to heat pump standards. In particular areas where the weather is often driving rain, cavity wall insulation can destroy the house. [2] [1] https://www.energynetworks.org/newsroom/hydrogen-blending-what-is-it-and-why-does-it-matter https://www.energynetworks.org/newsroom/hydrogen-blending-wh... [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42165358 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42165358

Glench 5y ago

Why do you say heat pumps only work in well insulated houses with large radiators? Heat pumps are ~3x as efficient as the best gas furnaces so why would you need a better insulated house? Also, the problem with hydrogen is how do you produce it? Probably with renewable energy, right? So why would you waste all that energy converting from renewable electricity to hydrogen then burning hydrogen (which is not super efficient anyway)? Might as well just use the renewables to power your heat pump. Plus, heat pumps already work at scale whereas hydrogen needs a lot more work before it's ready for primetime.

heurisko 5y ago
> Why do you say heat pumps only work in well insulated houses with large radiators? Because heat pumps operate at a lower flow temperature than boilers. Smaller radiators designed to operate at hotter temperatures won't bring your house up to the target heat temperature operating at lower temperatures. They often need replacing. [1] Trials of heat pumps in existing UK housing have found it difficult giving away heat pumps for free, because of all the extra work required for them to operate properly in the house. [2] > Heat pumps are ~3x as efficient as the best gas furnaces so why would you need a better insulated house? Heat pumps in comparison to conventional boilers are meant to be on all the time at a lower temperature, as they take a long time to bring a house up to target temperature. They depend on good insulation, otherwise the heat never accumulates, similar to if you leave a freezer door ajar, it will never freeze. > So why would you waste all that energy converting from renewable electricity to hydrogen then burning hydrogen (which is not super efficient anyway)? At times, renewable energy drives electricity prices negative. We haven't got many ways to store this when it happens, converting water to hydrogen would be a good candidate, which can be delivered using existing gas infrastructure. > Plus, heat pumps already work at scale Not in existing UK housing, which would require major changes (insulation, underfloor heating, larger radiators), before they work. [1] https://www.imsheatpumps.co.uk/blog/can-i-use-radiators-with-a-heat-pump/ https://www.imsheatpumps.co.uk/blog/can-i-use-radiators-with... [2] https://www.housingtoday.co.uk/news/major-challenges-in-persuading-homeowners-to-install-heat-pumps-government-admits/5112116.article https://www.housingtoday.co.uk/news/major-challenges-in-pers...
- Glench 5y ago
  Yeah, so your argument assumes that retrofitting radiators with heat pumps is the only way to install. Not true! You left out mini-splits which efficiently heat rooms and have the added benefit of being less expensive and disruptive to homes than under-floor heating. The reality is that we don't have time to wait on unproven technologies like hydrogen boilers (which gas boiler companies are using to try to delay their inevitable demise). We don't have time to wait on an non-existing hydrogen infrastructure. Despite what you say, heat pumps are working at scale today around the world and individuals can go buy them now and successfully heat and cool their homes. But hey, I'm not a fundamentalist — whatever works! We need all solutions very fast in order to mitigate damage. If part of that is hydrogen then great! It just seems unlikely to scale at the required rate.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    > Yeah, so your argument assumes that retrofitting radiators with heat pumps is the only way to install It's not an argument, I'm just relaying what heat pump installers need to change in order for the pumps to work. The system also needs to provide hot water. > The reality is that we don't have time to wait on unproven technologies like hydrogen boilers They're not unproven, 20pc hydrogen ready boilers are being sold today. > Despite what you say, heat pumps are working at scale today around the world and individuals can go buy them now and successfully heat and cool their homes. That some people have used heat pumps to successfully heat their homes was never disputed. They're just not the panacea they are made out to be for UK housing.

fulafel 5y ago

For a poorly insulated house, it's better to fix the insulation than to do lossy and expensive conversion to/from hydrogen, not to mention investment in storage or transport, when at the end of the day the expensive hydrogen will be mostly wasted due to lack of insulation (costing yet more of the expensive hydrogen).

heurisko 5y ago
Conversion to hydrogen need not be expensive. In the UK sometimes electricity prices turn negative on very windy days, and hydrogen can be stored. Pilot schemes are already using hydrogen blend with gas using existing infrastructure. [1] I've nothing against more insulation, but the UK has a lot of old housing, which isn't always easy to insulate to heat pump standards. In particular areas where the weather is often driving rain, cavity wall insulation can destroy the house. [2] [1] https://www.energynetworks.org/newsroom/hydrogen-blending-what-is-it-and-why-does-it-matter https://www.energynetworks.org/newsroom/hydrogen-blending-wh... [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42165358 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42165358