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Why do people insist on trivialising our profession so much? You don't get bootcamps for doctors or airline pilots. But people think they can go on some course

Why do people insist on trivialising our profession so much? You don't get bootcamps for doctors or airline pilots. But people think they can go on some course, shit out a few lines of javascript/ruby/whatever and go get a job.

paxys 5y ago
That's because you literally can do that.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  If you are highly talented, sure. There are also piano prodigies, whereas everyone else has to study for many years to reach that level of proficiency and may never reach it. Some can pick it up mind-boggingly quickly because their brains are naturally good at formal thinking, keeping many variables in their head, and being extremely precise and logical in their thoughts without much training. But again, that's such a small share of the population that "be a prodigy" is not really useful life advice.
  - mirker 5y ago
    Being a prodigy is not necessary to set up a webpage (or whatever). I’d argue most jobs are processing low-grade data with legacy frameworks, which is a test of patience and not prodigy IQ.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      > Being a prodigy is not necessary to set up a webpage True, but you are not going to get a tech job because you can set up a webpage. Maybe in 1999 San Francisco, but the world has moved on. There are actually not that many jobs open to people who just know how to deal with a web framework.
      - mirker 5y ago
        I just looked for Drupal and Wordpress jobs and they exist ($60k/year seems normal). Since the whole point of these frameworks is to abstract out actually writing the bulk of server code, I’d imagine a large part of the job is dealing with legacy quirks, uploading photos, and keeping servers up. There’s clearly a business need but as far as I know, there isn’t a mathematical-type of hardness to managing these types of websites. And on Wallstreet you have trading being performed with VBA Excel scripts…
_8j50 5y ago
Because those professions have different requirements. Why did you pick doctors and pilots specifically? Why not carpenters and plumbers or electricians.
jstx1 5y ago
It's a bit more nuanced - being self-taught is a thing especially since you already have access to world class resources online. You might be missing a bit of structure or access to professors but the best learning materials are already out there and they're fairly accessible. So it's definitely possible to make it without formal education but it takes a lot of time and effort. I think that's the part that trivialises it - looking for the fastest way often means that you make compromises with how well you learn. The other part is that even the people with formal education have learned most of the stuff that they know through self-studying and real-world experience - very often you hear people in their first job saying that university didn't really prepare them for an actual job in software. And the skills that you leave university with are just a starting point - you have to keep learning throughout your entire career anyway.
the_only_law 5y ago
Well, you have kids that can blow away long time professionals and people who make it in the industry right out of high school. You don’t hear of as many kids who as teenagers can perform medical procedures or fly planes (if any for the former). I think part of it is the accessibility of both the tools and the knowledge compared to other fields. The two aforementioned professions are both gatekept behind expensive credentials as well (pillows don’t need a degree, but iirc the process to get licensed isn’t cheap). Additionally: > shit out a few lines of javascript/ruby/whatever and go get a job. Actually seems fine for a number of roles out there. There are plenty of jobs where it’s enough to shit out code that just works, while you probably won’t be commanding the salaries people gush over in more tech centric communities such as this, you can certainly make more money that you would in the typical roles that many people find available post-education. I’ve argued about this before here, but in my experience, you don’t have to be that great of a developer to maintain some form of employment in the industry. When you have a field, that pays well, even in some of the lower windows, has a vast amount of learning resources readily available, is not locked behind time and money expensive credentials and has all the tools needed to learn do the job for free, it seems almost stupid not to consider it.
kongolongo 5y ago
It's interesting you say that because South Korea had scandals where unlicensed nurses, office managers, and receptionists were performing surgery, not to say it isn't difficult to perform surgery, but I think it was doable at all because the core skills you need aren't difficult to pick up for the majority of cases, but the breadth and depth of knowledge you need to deal with more complicated surgeries is why there's a lot of gatekeeping and licensing for professions like surgery or airline pilots. In fact being licensed for small aircraft in the us isn't much different from a bootcamp in terms of time and effort, but that jump from personal to commercial airplanes is largely in more flight time and some specifics related to larger aircraft, but largely the skills are very similar. I think the same is true of most software jobs.
codegeek 5y ago
Because it has the lowest barrier to entry with highest potential to make a lot more money than a lot of shitty jobs. I don't necessarily disgree with you but just explaining the reason behind the gold rush with "learn to code and make six figures". I don't really blame someone who is stuck in a shitty low paying job with no job guarantee. They have nothing to lose but try the whole coding thing and see if they can hit it big. The only issue with that is that if they don't enjoy learning how to code and are just doing it for quick money, they wouldn't be able to sustain that for a long period of time. I know a few people who tried bootcamps and then never got anywhere. If you have a mid level IQ and are willing to put the work in and can self learn, coding is one of the best things you can try to get to six figure income. It literally costs nothing except your time for the most part.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  There are only a relatively few places where you can make six figures writing code, and they aren't places everyone would be happy living. So you need to consider what kind of non-work life you want to live. Also nobody is making six figures with only boot-camp experience.
  - weatherlight 5y ago
    Yeah, hate to break it to you but starting salary here in NYC is about 100k. If you have a 4year degree or a bootcamp and you get through the interview, we pay you the same. When I started 9 years ago bootcamp grads made significantly less. My first gig, starting was 60K, now I'm making close to 200k.
short12 5y ago
Because 90 percent of the profession is trivial?
qualudeheart 5y ago
I think we’re heading for programming as 80% a job program for INTJ/P and aspergers people and 20% as a technical profession. You can mass throw neets at le epic coding bootcamp and hire those that perform decently. Like a repeat of the outsourcing trend during the 2000s.
dragonwriter 5y ago
Because our profession is a lot less like “medical doctor” or “airline pilot” and a lot more like an amalgam of various specialized medical technicians, levels of nursing, and medical doctors all in one “profession”, without hard boundaries, and with hiring processes that can probably reliably distinguish the equivalent of a phlebotomist from a the equivalent of a cardiac surgeon, but not super reliably distinguish lots of other qualification differences that would be distinctly different professional qualifications if the industry was like medicine. And there are programs for the lower levels of that amalgamated medical grouping that are much less involved than typical coding bootcamps.
EdSharkey 5y ago
Unserious and lazy thinking devs give off the impression that we are unprofessional. No institutional barriers into the trade reinforce that. If we didn't have such a demand for workers, maybe those barriers could be erected.
Zababa 5y ago
It's because we don't have a strict distinction between worker, technician, engineer, architect. People tend to assume all kind of roles, informally. There are also lots of flat hierarchies, with everyone contributing to decisions. Sometimes the job is just shitting out a few lines of Javascript/ruby/whatever, there's no need to know about theorical stuff. Another thing is that since you have almost all the necessary info online, and that open source is a very big thing, there is way less gatekeeping compared to other industries.
walshemj 5y ago
You do for pilots - its just a lot longer and more expensive
toast0 5y ago
> You don't get bootcamps for doctors or airline pilots. There are essentially bootcamp programs to get pilot licenses. Most people I know who have or were pursing a license would do a couple hour class once a week or so, but you can also sign up for bootcamp style courses where you do a focused, 8ish hours a day, 5 day a week program for a month or so and assuming all goes well, end up with a pilot license. Of course, a license doesn't get you a airline job, you'll need to do additional training and acquire flight hours. Software jobs don't have hours requirements like many professional fields (usually through license requirements), so that makes it a lot easier to get in.

paxys 5y ago

That's because you literally can do that.

rsj_hn 5y ago
If you are highly talented, sure. There are also piano prodigies, whereas everyone else has to study for many years to reach that level of proficiency and may never reach it. Some can pick it up mind-boggingly quickly because their brains are naturally good at formal thinking, keeping many variables in their head, and being extremely precise and logical in their thoughts without much training. But again, that's such a small share of the population that "be a prodigy" is not really useful life advice.
- mirker 5y ago
  Being a prodigy is not necessary to set up a webpage (or whatever). I’d argue most jobs are processing low-grade data with legacy frameworks, which is a test of patience and not prodigy IQ.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > Being a prodigy is not necessary to set up a webpage True, but you are not going to get a tech job because you can set up a webpage. Maybe in 1999 San Francisco, but the world has moved on. There are actually not that many jobs open to people who just know how to deal with a web framework.
    - mirker 5y ago
      I just looked for Drupal and Wordpress jobs and they exist ($60k/year seems normal). Since the whole point of these frameworks is to abstract out actually writing the bulk of server code, I’d imagine a large part of the job is dealing with legacy quirks, uploading photos, and keeping servers up. There’s clearly a business need but as far as I know, there isn’t a mathematical-type of hardness to managing these types of websites. And on Wallstreet you have trading being performed with VBA Excel scripts…

_8j50 5y ago

Because those professions have different requirements. Why did you pick doctors and pilots specifically? Why not carpenters and plumbers or electricians.

jstx1 5y ago

It's a bit more nuanced - being self-taught is a thing especially since you already have access to world class resources online. You might be missing a bit of structure or access to professors but the best learning materials are already out there and they're fairly accessible. So it's definitely possible to make it without formal education but it takes a lot of time and effort. I think that's the part that trivialises it - looking for the fastest way often means that you make compromises with how well you learn. The other part is that even the people with formal education have learned most of the stuff that they know through self-studying and real-world experience - very often you hear people in their first job saying that university didn't really prepare them for an actual job in software. And the skills that you leave university with are just a starting point - you have to keep learning throughout your entire career anyway.

the_only_law 5y ago

Well, you have kids that can blow away long time professionals and people who make it in the industry right out of high school. You don’t hear of as many kids who as teenagers can perform medical procedures or fly planes (if any for the former). I think part of it is the accessibility of both the tools and the knowledge compared to other fields. The two aforementioned professions are both gatekept behind expensive credentials as well (pillows don’t need a degree, but iirc the process to get licensed isn’t cheap). Additionally: > shit out a few lines of javascript/ruby/whatever and go get a job. Actually seems fine for a number of roles out there. There are plenty of jobs where it’s enough to shit out code that just works, while you probably won’t be commanding the salaries people gush over in more tech centric communities such as this, you can certainly make more money that you would in the typical roles that many people find available post-education. I’ve argued about this before here, but in my experience, you don’t have to be that great of a developer to maintain some form of employment in the industry. When you have a field, that pays well, even in some of the lower windows, has a vast amount of learning resources readily available, is not locked behind time and money expensive credentials and has all the tools needed to learn do the job for free, it seems almost stupid not to consider it.

kongolongo 5y ago

It's interesting you say that because South Korea had scandals where unlicensed nurses, office managers, and receptionists were performing surgery, not to say it isn't difficult to perform surgery, but I think it was doable at all because the core skills you need aren't difficult to pick up for the majority of cases, but the breadth and depth of knowledge you need to deal with more complicated surgeries is why there's a lot of gatekeeping and licensing for professions like surgery or airline pilots. In fact being licensed for small aircraft in the us isn't much different from a bootcamp in terms of time and effort, but that jump from personal to commercial airplanes is largely in more flight time and some specifics related to larger aircraft, but largely the skills are very similar. I think the same is true of most software jobs.

codegeek 5y ago

Because it has the lowest barrier to entry with highest potential to make a lot more money than a lot of shitty jobs. I don't necessarily disgree with you but just explaining the reason behind the gold rush with "learn to code and make six figures". I don't really blame someone who is stuck in a shitty low paying job with no job guarantee. They have nothing to lose but try the whole coding thing and see if they can hit it big. The only issue with that is that if they don't enjoy learning how to code and are just doing it for quick money, they wouldn't be able to sustain that for a long period of time. I know a few people who tried bootcamps and then never got anywhere. If you have a mid level IQ and are willing to put the work in and can self learn, coding is one of the best things you can try to get to six figure income. It literally costs nothing except your time for the most part.

throwawayboise 5y ago
There are only a relatively few places where you can make six figures writing code, and they aren't places everyone would be happy living. So you need to consider what kind of non-work life you want to live. Also nobody is making six figures with only boot-camp experience.
- weatherlight 5y ago
  Yeah, hate to break it to you but starting salary here in NYC is about 100k. If you have a 4year degree or a bootcamp and you get through the interview, we pay you the same. When I started 9 years ago bootcamp grads made significantly less. My first gig, starting was 60K, now I'm making close to 200k.

short12 5y ago

Because 90 percent of the profession is trivial?

qualudeheart 5y ago

I think we’re heading for programming as 80% a job program for INTJ/P and aspergers people and 20% as a technical profession. You can mass throw neets at le epic coding bootcamp and hire those that perform decently. Like a repeat of the outsourcing trend during the 2000s.

dragonwriter 5y ago

Because our profession is a lot less like “medical doctor” or “airline pilot” and a lot more like an amalgam of various specialized medical technicians, levels of nursing, and medical doctors all in one “profession”, without hard boundaries, and with hiring processes that can probably reliably distinguish the equivalent of a phlebotomist from a the equivalent of a cardiac surgeon, but not super reliably distinguish lots of other qualification differences that would be distinctly different professional qualifications if the industry was like medicine. And there are programs for the lower levels of that amalgamated medical grouping that are much less involved than typical coding bootcamps.

EdSharkey 5y ago

Unserious and lazy thinking devs give off the impression that we are unprofessional. No institutional barriers into the trade reinforce that. If we didn't have such a demand for workers, maybe those barriers could be erected.

Zababa 5y ago

It's because we don't have a strict distinction between worker, technician, engineer, architect. People tend to assume all kind of roles, informally. There are also lots of flat hierarchies, with everyone contributing to decisions. Sometimes the job is just shitting out a few lines of Javascript/ruby/whatever, there's no need to know about theorical stuff. Another thing is that since you have almost all the necessary info online, and that open source is a very big thing, there is way less gatekeeping compared to other industries.

walshemj 5y ago

You do for pilots - its just a lot longer and more expensive

toast0 5y ago

> You don't get bootcamps for doctors or airline pilots. There are essentially bootcamp programs to get pilot licenses. Most people I know who have or were pursing a license would do a couple hour class once a week or so, but you can also sign up for bootcamp style courses where you do a focused, 8ish hours a day, 5 day a week program for a month or so and assuming all goes well, end up with a pilot license. Of course, a license doesn't get you a airline job, you'll need to do additional training and acquire flight hours. Software jobs don't have hours requirements like many professional fields (usually through license requirements), so that makes it a lot easier to get in.