4 ms·

Just to be clear. Government wealth comes from tax collection and from the people. While we want to help the world there are constraints on how much we can do.

maxerickson 5y ago
I mean, that's a story book simplification. Look at the mobilization for World War II. The decision to do it had more than 0 impact on the resources that ended up being available (I'm being droll; the decision had an enormous impact). The US could start paying (the reasonable, cost based) price for every single Covid 19 vaccination that takes place and forget about it, it isn't that big a sum of money. Meanwhile, we've, by choice, only done a bit.
mistermann 5y ago
The general sentiment I get from most people is that banding together to save the lives of others is a moral imperative, and unwillingness to do so is selfish. I don't think I am mischaracterizing this, am I?
- TrispusAttucks 5y ago
  I don't think you are but it is nuanced. Our two sentiments are not incompatible. Focusing on self first is not inherently selfishness. "You can't help others if you yourself are in need of help." "Before You Help Others, You Must First Help Yourself" "Before you assist others, always put your oxygen mask on first." "Self-sufficiency is a prerequisite to charity."
  - mistermann 5y ago
    > Focusing on self first is not inherently selfishness. Agreed, but focusing on self-only is proclaimed to be selfish, is it not? Have Western nations not had the means for many years to dramatically decrease deaths in foreign countries for relatively modest sacrifices? There are certainly no shortage of persuasive memes, platitudes, and general rhetoric that exert significant influence on people's perception of this matter, but I prefer addressing it from a strict epistemic perspective.
    - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
      Fact: United States is the #1 provider of foreign aid on the plantet [1] -- That fact is not compatible with the assertion of focusing on self only. -- to your point: Sure. But as so often happens the only disagreement we really have is the level at which aid is given. Shall we not just give away everything for the greater good until we have nothing left? I don't suppose to have perfect knowledge of the exactly balance we can give with out reducing our self to a position of requiring then help from others. It's dishonest to ignore all the aid we give around the world. So if giving the most aid of any country is not enough... What amount is enough? [1] https://www.wristband.com/content/which-countries-provide-receive-most-foreign-aid/ https://www.wristband.com/content/which-countries-provide-re...
      - maxerickson 5y ago
        It's pretty likely that giving away many more covid vaccines would have been a net benefit to the material wealth of the US, so this is sort of a diversion, talking about other aid that doesn't have the same dynamic (vaccines are cheap and carry huge benefits).
        TrispusAttucks 5y ago
        Look. Your mind is made up. I don't wanna watch a bunch of axe grinding. The USA is evil in your book. No amount of logic will convince you. A bunch of pharmacies threw out expired vaccine doses. Obviously there is a sinister conspiracy here. /s
        maxerickson 5y ago
        Don't presume to speak my thoughts. I don't think the US is evil, I think people have a poor understanding of how little it would cost to help the rest of the world a lot more with vaccination and am disappointed that we are not doing it.
      - mistermann 5y ago
        > But as so often happens the only disagreement we really have is the level at which aid is given. > Shall we not just give away everything for the greater good until we have nothing left? It's not the disagreement that I find interesting, it's the consistency between the claimed ideology (and the self-righteous, hyper-confident manner in which it is often delivered) preached by The Righteous when it comes to certain parts of COVID, combined with the "That's different/Whataboutism!" card that is played when things are not quite to the liking of these people, or the interesting way in which they calculate "selfishness" with 100% confidence in their correctness, while typically being unable/unwilling to give even a pseudocode explanation of how they calculate it. > It's dishonest to ignore all the aid we give around the world. I am not denying that America is the most generous nation on the planet, it is the self-righteous and hypocritical attitude of many Americans that I think is interesting. > What amount is enough? I think one's walk should match one's talk.

maxerickson 5y ago

I mean, that's a story book simplification. Look at the mobilization for World War II. The decision to do it had more than 0 impact on the resources that ended up being available (I'm being droll; the decision had an enormous impact). The US could start paying (the reasonable, cost based) price for every single Covid 19 vaccination that takes place and forget about it, it isn't that big a sum of money. Meanwhile, we've, by choice, only done a bit.

mistermann 5y ago

The general sentiment I get from most people is that banding together to save the lives of others is a moral imperative, and unwillingness to do so is selfish. I don't think I am mischaracterizing this, am I?

TrispusAttucks 5y ago
I don't think you are but it is nuanced. Our two sentiments are not incompatible. Focusing on self first is not inherently selfishness. "You can't help others if you yourself are in need of help." "Before You Help Others, You Must First Help Yourself" "Before you assist others, always put your oxygen mask on first." "Self-sufficiency is a prerequisite to charity."
- mistermann 5y ago
  > Focusing on self first is not inherently selfishness. Agreed, but focusing on self-only is proclaimed to be selfish, is it not? Have Western nations not had the means for many years to dramatically decrease deaths in foreign countries for relatively modest sacrifices? There are certainly no shortage of persuasive memes, platitudes, and general rhetoric that exert significant influence on people's perception of this matter, but I prefer addressing it from a strict epistemic perspective.
  - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
    Fact: United States is the #1 provider of foreign aid on the plantet [1] -- That fact is not compatible with the assertion of focusing on self only. -- to your point: Sure. But as so often happens the only disagreement we really have is the level at which aid is given. Shall we not just give away everything for the greater good until we have nothing left? I don't suppose to have perfect knowledge of the exactly balance we can give with out reducing our self to a position of requiring then help from others. It's dishonest to ignore all the aid we give around the world. So if giving the most aid of any country is not enough... What amount is enough? [1] https://www.wristband.com/content/which-countries-provide-receive-most-foreign-aid/ https://www.wristband.com/content/which-countries-provide-re...
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      It's pretty likely that giving away many more covid vaccines would have been a net benefit to the material wealth of the US, so this is sort of a diversion, talking about other aid that doesn't have the same dynamic (vaccines are cheap and carry huge benefits).
      - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
        Look. Your mind is made up. I don't wanna watch a bunch of axe grinding. The USA is evil in your book. No amount of logic will convince you. A bunch of pharmacies threw out expired vaccine doses. Obviously there is a sinister conspiracy here. /s
        maxerickson 5y ago
        Don't presume to speak my thoughts. I don't think the US is evil, I think people have a poor understanding of how little it would cost to help the rest of the world a lot more with vaccination and am disappointed that we are not doing it.
    - mistermann 5y ago
      > But as so often happens the only disagreement we really have is the level at which aid is given. > Shall we not just give away everything for the greater good until we have nothing left? It's not the disagreement that I find interesting, it's the consistency between the claimed ideology (and the self-righteous, hyper-confident manner in which it is often delivered) preached by The Righteous when it comes to certain parts of COVID, combined with the "That's different/Whataboutism!" card that is played when things are not quite to the liking of these people, or the interesting way in which they calculate "selfishness" with 100% confidence in their correctness, while typically being unable/unwilling to give even a pseudocode explanation of how they calculate it. > It's dishonest to ignore all the aid we give around the world. I am not denying that America is the most generous nation on the planet, it is the self-righteous and hypocritical attitude of many Americans that I think is interesting. > What amount is enough? I think one's walk should match one's talk.