5 ms·

I mean I won't call clickbait but title is intentionally pushing some outrage crap. > In the face of global inequities, it’s not as simple as states donating u

I mean I won't call clickbait but title is intentionally pushing some outrage crap. > In the face of global inequities, it’s not as simple as states donating unused vaccines. The doses already distributed to states can’t be repurposed internationally because of bureaucratic and safety concerns around storing the vaccines correctly. This is alongside a global crisis for shipping anything using cargo ships

cperciva 5y ago
Vaccines are small enough and valuable enough to be transported in planes -- by the military if necessary.
- iszomer 5y ago
  IIRC they all have varying requirements for storage during transport; some require extreme temperature control while others do not.
silisili 5y ago
It's absolutely clickbait. The title strongly gives the impression of the US just throwing vaccines in the trash and laughing while others are suffering. The article is much more levelheaded and explains why fairly well, so it's by definition clickbait IMO.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  Probably risky to say it here but I think liberal media has two contradictory forces to deal with 1) Can't say anything pro-US due to association with right-wing media 2) Can't remain 100% factual as clickrate metrics dwindle. Not saying they're not factual (mostly they are), just that they have editorial bias that serves the readership while also having to state facts (some of them are pro-US). Edit: @simonh - Agreed, Right wing media is completely off the rails, but not sure we need to compare here. I wasn't advocating it.
  - simonh 5y ago
    As against right wing media, which suffers no biases and is a paragon of objective impartiality. Look, I'm a serial conservative voting Brit. I'm no leftie, but OMG Fox News and the Daily Mail take the biscuit. In the unlikely event I ever were to vote left, one of those is far more likely to push me over the edge than the Guardian.
    - l33t2328 5y ago
      I’m not sure why you think that comparison was warranted.
    - sdhfjujkh 5y ago
      You're the only one bringing up right wing media.
    - moron4hire 5y ago
      Yeah, I don't let the "but he did it first" excuse fly with my kids, I'm certainly not letting it fly with the media.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That could be possible. Or, more likely: The headline is actually correct, and the nuance in the article only serves to explain but on the balance does not justify the US throwing out doses. This is made a lot more likely by the fact that the US is the only country that refuses to export vaccines and by the fact that other countries have exported unused doses.
    - erikerikson 5y ago
      Something I have no knowledge of that the article could have mentioned precedent for is the expected waste observed in existing vaccination efforts. How much shrinkage due to the factors involved with "wasted" COVID vaccines is there with the flu vaccine which is not in a phase of initial scarcity? What is the prior and how different is the observation in this case?
  - 5y ago
spicybright 5y ago
It reminds me of people yelling about food waste in grocery stores and restaurants. Yes, absolutely it's bad they're throwing it out. No debate there. But it's not like they can ship it somewhere else without it costing more than the food itself. The solution is better understanding of who needs what and try to fill them as close as you can without going over too much. That will optimize usage of a product.
- iszomer 5y ago
  There has also been a relatively small culture of dumpster diving (for food) because of it.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  I assure you there is no shortage of countries that will pay for the vaccines to be delivered by air to their airport and then take it from there. Other countries have done it. The US won't. It's clearly not anywhere close.
  - l33t2328 5y ago
    Other countries have not flown to hundreds of locations to pick up vaccines with hitherto unknown storage conditions.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      The storage conditions are not unknown. There is documentation on every lot to guarantee that they were stored in the proper conditions and to evaluate how they should be stored going forwards. There is also no reason to fly to these locations. There is already the logistic capacity to ship in the proper conditions between these locations and a few central hubs. It just has to be run in reverse. It hasn't been done for hundreds of locations because few countries are as big as the US, but it has been done on a smaller scale by less capable actors.
      - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
sudosysgen 5y ago
Oh come on. First of all, vaccines aren't delivered internationally by ship, they are delivered by air cargo. Often by militaries, which will do it promptly at a moment's notice. Second of all, "bureaucratic and safety concerns" is code for "we don't want to bother". Those are all things that can be worked around and have indeed been by other countries that had excess doses.
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  Using Louisiana from the article, 90% of the waste was from started vials that weren't finished before they expired from being initially punctured (starts a countdown for safety/effectiveness reasons). We could overnight those to airports in other countries and then, somehow, quickly transport them (while refrigerated) to remote areas. Yeah, that would totally show up with enough time to still be useful. Or, hear me out, we could make sure other countries get doses straight from production sources instead of getting the just-about-to-expire doses left over from the US.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Louisiana has been throwing out doses for months now. At the outset, yes, this is acceptable, but when your waste is increasing month over month for six months+ you just start sending out less and you ship out the rest. You also don't "overnight them to remote areas". You drop them off at the airport, then the other country either sends their military aviation or charters another countries cargos to pick them up.
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      > Louisiana has been throwing out doses for months now. At the outset, yes, this is acceptable, but when your waste is increasing month over month for six months+ you just start sending out less and you ship out the rest. Ok, that's fair. But the rest of your comments in this discussion have been about how the waste itself is the result of a lie and that, somehow, we can collect already distributed and started vials quickly enough to fly them to other countries and, somehow, distribute quickly enough within them for it to be worthwhile and not just a hurried rush to find out that people are getting little better than a placebo. If you'd read my second paragraph, I suggest exactly what you did: Make sure countries get doses from the sources instead of fretting about waste that, itself, is useless because there is no logistical scheme in place or even reasonably achievable that can collect and redistribute these doses to make them useful. EDIT: Now I'm glad I quoted you as you've edited your comment after my initial reply. > You also don't "overnight them to remote areas". You drop them off at the airport, then the other country either sends their military aviation or charters another countries cargos to pick them up. Practically speaking, once the vials are started the countdown begins. The only reasonable way to use the started vials in countries on other continents and distribute to their remote communities is to ship it as fast as possible, which means overnighting. You can't collect them and wait a week to ship them and then a week or more to get them distributed within the countries and expect a useful vaccine dose to be delivered. Also, you've misquoted me. I did not say "overnight them to remote areas" as you suggest. I said "overnight those to airports in other countries". Those are two very different statements. Don't make fake quotes in your replies, it's dishonest.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
> Louisiana has thrown out 224,000 unused doses of the Covid vaccines – a rate that has almost tripled since the end of July, even as a deadly fourth wave of the virus gripped the state. Some of the lost doses came from opening and not finishing vials, but more than 20,000 shots simply expired. So about 10% of the loss was due to expiration, and that could have happened pretty far downstream, not in some massive central warehouse where someone could have sent a pallet of 20000 shots out.

cperciva 5y ago

Vaccines are small enough and valuable enough to be transported in planes -- by the military if necessary.

iszomer 5y ago
IIRC they all have varying requirements for storage during transport; some require extreme temperature control while others do not.

silisili 5y ago

It's absolutely clickbait. The title strongly gives the impression of the US just throwing vaccines in the trash and laughing while others are suffering. The article is much more levelheaded and explains why fairly well, so it's by definition clickbait IMO.

systemvoltage 5y ago
Probably risky to say it here but I think liberal media has two contradictory forces to deal with 1) Can't say anything pro-US due to association with right-wing media 2) Can't remain 100% factual as clickrate metrics dwindle. Not saying they're not factual (mostly they are), just that they have editorial bias that serves the readership while also having to state facts (some of them are pro-US). Edit: @simonh - Agreed, Right wing media is completely off the rails, but not sure we need to compare here. I wasn't advocating it.
- simonh 5y ago
  As against right wing media, which suffers no biases and is a paragon of objective impartiality. Look, I'm a serial conservative voting Brit. I'm no leftie, but OMG Fox News and the Daily Mail take the biscuit. In the unlikely event I ever were to vote left, one of those is far more likely to push me over the edge than the Guardian.
  - l33t2328 5y ago
    I’m not sure why you think that comparison was warranted.
  - sdhfjujkh 5y ago
    You're the only one bringing up right wing media.
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't let the "but he did it first" excuse fly with my kids, I'm certainly not letting it fly with the media.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That could be possible. Or, more likely: The headline is actually correct, and the nuance in the article only serves to explain but on the balance does not justify the US throwing out doses. This is made a lot more likely by the fact that the US is the only country that refuses to export vaccines and by the fact that other countries have exported unused doses.
  - erikerikson 5y ago
    Something I have no knowledge of that the article could have mentioned precedent for is the expected waste observed in existing vaccination efforts. How much shrinkage due to the factors involved with "wasted" COVID vaccines is there with the flu vaccine which is not in a phase of initial scarcity? What is the prior and how different is the observation in this case?
- 5y ago

spicybright 5y ago

It reminds me of people yelling about food waste in grocery stores and restaurants. Yes, absolutely it's bad they're throwing it out. No debate there. But it's not like they can ship it somewhere else without it costing more than the food itself. The solution is better understanding of who needs what and try to fill them as close as you can without going over too much. That will optimize usage of a product.

iszomer 5y ago
There has also been a relatively small culture of dumpster diving (for food) because of it.
sudosysgen 5y ago
I assure you there is no shortage of countries that will pay for the vaccines to be delivered by air to their airport and then take it from there. Other countries have done it. The US won't. It's clearly not anywhere close.
- l33t2328 5y ago
  Other countries have not flown to hundreds of locations to pick up vaccines with hitherto unknown storage conditions.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    The storage conditions are not unknown. There is documentation on every lot to guarantee that they were stored in the proper conditions and to evaluate how they should be stored going forwards. There is also no reason to fly to these locations. There is already the logistic capacity to ship in the proper conditions between these locations and a few central hubs. It just has to be run in reverse. It hasn't been done for hundreds of locations because few countries are as big as the US, but it has been done on a smaller scale by less capable actors.
    - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

Oh come on. First of all, vaccines aren't delivered internationally by ship, they are delivered by air cargo. Often by militaries, which will do it promptly at a moment's notice. Second of all, "bureaucratic and safety concerns" is code for "we don't want to bother". Those are all things that can be worked around and have indeed been by other countries that had excess doses.

Jtsummers 5y ago
Using Louisiana from the article, 90% of the waste was from started vials that weren't finished before they expired from being initially punctured (starts a countdown for safety/effectiveness reasons). We could overnight those to airports in other countries and then, somehow, quickly transport them (while refrigerated) to remote areas. Yeah, that would totally show up with enough time to still be useful. Or, hear me out, we could make sure other countries get doses straight from production sources instead of getting the just-about-to-expire doses left over from the US.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Louisiana has been throwing out doses for months now. At the outset, yes, this is acceptable, but when your waste is increasing month over month for six months+ you just start sending out less and you ship out the rest. You also don't "overnight them to remote areas". You drop them off at the airport, then the other country either sends their military aviation or charters another countries cargos to pick them up.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    > Louisiana has been throwing out doses for months now. At the outset, yes, this is acceptable, but when your waste is increasing month over month for six months+ you just start sending out less and you ship out the rest. Ok, that's fair. But the rest of your comments in this discussion have been about how the waste itself is the result of a lie and that, somehow, we can collect already distributed and started vials quickly enough to fly them to other countries and, somehow, distribute quickly enough within them for it to be worthwhile and not just a hurried rush to find out that people are getting little better than a placebo. If you'd read my second paragraph, I suggest exactly what you did: Make sure countries get doses from the sources instead of fretting about waste that, itself, is useless because there is no logistical scheme in place or even reasonably achievable that can collect and redistribute these doses to make them useful. EDIT: Now I'm glad I quoted you as you've edited your comment after my initial reply. > You also don't "overnight them to remote areas". You drop them off at the airport, then the other country either sends their military aviation or charters another countries cargos to pick them up. Practically speaking, once the vials are started the countdown begins. The only reasonable way to use the started vials in countries on other continents and distribute to their remote communities is to ship it as fast as possible, which means overnighting. You can't collect them and wait a week to ship them and then a week or more to get them distributed within the countries and expect a useful vaccine dose to be delivered. Also, you've misquoted me. I did not say "overnight them to remote areas" as you suggest. I said "overnight those to airports in other countries". Those are two very different statements. Don't make fake quotes in your replies, it's dishonest.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

> Louisiana has thrown out 224,000 unused doses of the Covid vaccines – a rate that has almost tripled since the end of July, even as a deadly fourth wave of the virus gripped the state. Some of the lost doses came from opening and not finishing vials, but more than 20,000 shots simply expired. So about 10% of the loss was due to expiration, and that could have happened pretty far downstream, not in some massive central warehouse where someone could have sent a pallet of 20000 shots out.