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to continue in that metaphor, it's worth noting that here and most anywhere with something resembling "the freedom this country offers" was formerly a monarchy

by ruined 5y ago

to continue in that metaphor, it's worth noting that here and most anywhere with something resembling "the freedom this country offers" was formerly a monarchy in which people thinking critically about the way it was structured started causing chaos and sowing discontent, so they could try this other way that people didn't think would work. say about that what you will. it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital. it's the place people feel most pressure in their lives today, feel the most helpless, and unable to act in their own interests or make their own way. and of course people who are invested in the current system of management will make arguments that it is perfectly rational and any other system cannot work. maybe everyone trying this will get kicked out. but i don't think that will discourage or prevent groups like this, because that doesn't kill the motivation. it's simply selection pressure for tactics that are more decentralized, more direct, popular, faster, and harder to shut down.

mostertoaster 5y ago
> Democratic management of capital That’s probably the best euphemism I’ve heard since “enhanced interrogation techniques”
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  That could just mean worker co-ops. What's so scary about Mondragón?
  - mostertoaster 5y ago
    I didn’t say anything was scary did I? I wasn’t necessarily trying to say it was like torture. It just sounds like something Bernie Sanders would say. It’s not socialism, it’s democratic socialism. I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      My larger point is that "democratic management of capital" doesn't have to mean socialism of any kind, it can mean worker co-ops, which can exist in social democratic, free market capitalist, hell even ancap utopian conceptions of stateless libertarian societies. It's just a management style. > I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board. Some companies are co-ops and have made it work. It depends, and is perhaps worth trying more.
- ruined 5y ago
  it's not a euphemism? it's a literalism. i don't think anyone would disagree that currently widespread models of management don't involve democratic processes. a lot of the activism internal to large companies today is in direct response to perceived failures of management, and seeks to demonstrate broad internal support for specific actions. they would be satisfied if they had an institutional remedy instead of just petitions to the "king"
worrycue 5y ago
> it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital. So does Joe the plumber whom you hired to fix the sink now have rights to determine how your household is run? Does he and Jimmy the electrician (who wired up the place) get to vote on who can live in your house or what the household budget should be spent on?
- ruined 5y ago
  if Joe the plumber came to my house every day to plumb for me the way i asked, and i handled his healthcare and bought him all his pipes and tools, and he depended on me and i on him by the terms of our agreement, yeah i should probably listen to him if he has a concern if he and Jimmy and the thousand other dudes that apparently come to my house every day all have feelings about something, it might end up looking like a democratic process but it would be really silly to run a huge business like that out of my home. good thing Joe and Jimmy only come by once in a while and don't give a fuck what i do here. anyway, strawmen like yours or mine are irrelevant, materially it's clear that workers in large companies are seeking to reform governance processes of those companies and gain more control. they will probably continue to try regardless of anyone else's opinion of it, they are systemically incentivized, because more control would benefit them.
  - worrycue 5y ago
    You can listen to him but you don’t have to - especially when he is talking about things outside his area of specialty.

by ruined 5y ago

mostertoaster 5y ago

> Democratic management of capital That’s probably the best euphemism I’ve heard since “enhanced interrogation techniques”

Apocryphon 5y ago
That could just mean worker co-ops. What's so scary about Mondragón?
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  I didn’t say anything was scary did I? I wasn’t necessarily trying to say it was like torture. It just sounds like something Bernie Sanders would say. It’s not socialism, it’s democratic socialism. I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    My larger point is that "democratic management of capital" doesn't have to mean socialism of any kind, it can mean worker co-ops, which can exist in social democratic, free market capitalist, hell even ancap utopian conceptions of stateless libertarian societies. It's just a management style. > I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board. Some companies are co-ops and have made it work. It depends, and is perhaps worth trying more.
ruined 5y ago
it's not a euphemism? it's a literalism. i don't think anyone would disagree that currently widespread models of management don't involve democratic processes. a lot of the activism internal to large companies today is in direct response to perceived failures of management, and seeks to demonstrate broad internal support for specific actions. they would be satisfied if they had an institutional remedy instead of just petitions to the "king"

worrycue 5y ago

> it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital. So does Joe the plumber whom you hired to fix the sink now have rights to determine how your household is run? Does he and Jimmy the electrician (who wired up the place) get to vote on who can live in your house or what the household budget should be spent on?

ruined 5y ago
if Joe the plumber came to my house every day to plumb for me the way i asked, and i handled his healthcare and bought him all his pipes and tools, and he depended on me and i on him by the terms of our agreement, yeah i should probably listen to him if he has a concern if he and Jimmy and the thousand other dudes that apparently come to my house every day all have feelings about something, it might end up looking like a democratic process but it would be really silly to run a huge business like that out of my home. good thing Joe and Jimmy only come by once in a while and don't give a fuck what i do here. anyway, strawmen like yours or mine are irrelevant, materially it's clear that workers in large companies are seeking to reform governance processes of those companies and gain more control. they will probably continue to try regardless of anyone else's opinion of it, they are systemically incentivized, because more control would benefit them.
- worrycue 5y ago
  You can listen to him but you don’t have to - especially when he is talking about things outside his area of specialty.