7 ms·

> What if you found every other company were the same way? Then make your own company, or failing that, start to think critically about why every company is st

> What if you found every other company were the same way? Then make your own company, or failing that, start to think critically about why every company is structured in the way it is. Maybe others have tried it your way and it didn't work? > That's like telling somebody living in a monarchy that if they want influence over their lives, they just have to marry into the royal family. Luckily, because of the freedom this country offers us, the solution is instead to (per the metaphor) go to another of the million monarchies, create your own monarchy, or, yes, work your way up in the monarchy. If you decide to start causing chaos and sowing discontent in your current kingdom, then you may be kicked out of it.

burnished 5y ago
Or, use your freedom to stay where you are and try to change things. You can't pull the freedom card to tell some one they should do something else. Its not consistent.
ruined 5y ago
to continue in that metaphor, it's worth noting that here and most anywhere with something resembling "the freedom this country offers" was formerly a monarchy in which people thinking critically about the way it was structured started causing chaos and sowing discontent, so they could try this other way that people didn't think would work. say about that what you will. it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital. it's the place people feel most pressure in their lives today, feel the most helpless, and unable to act in their own interests or make their own way. and of course people who are invested in the current system of management will make arguments that it is perfectly rational and any other system cannot work. maybe everyone trying this will get kicked out. but i don't think that will discourage or prevent groups like this, because that doesn't kill the motivation. it's simply selection pressure for tactics that are more decentralized, more direct, popular, faster, and harder to shut down.
- mostertoaster 5y ago
  > Democratic management of capital That’s probably the best euphemism I’ve heard since “enhanced interrogation techniques”
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    That could just mean worker co-ops. What's so scary about Mondragón?
    - mostertoaster 5y ago
      I didn’t say anything was scary did I? I wasn’t necessarily trying to say it was like torture. It just sounds like something Bernie Sanders would say. It’s not socialism, it’s democratic socialism. I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board.
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        My larger point is that "democratic management of capital" doesn't have to mean socialism of any kind, it can mean worker co-ops, which can exist in social democratic, free market capitalist, hell even ancap utopian conceptions of stateless libertarian societies. It's just a management style. > I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board. Some companies are co-ops and have made it work. It depends, and is perhaps worth trying more.
  - ruined 5y ago
    it's not a euphemism? it's a literalism. i don't think anyone would disagree that currently widespread models of management don't involve democratic processes. a lot of the activism internal to large companies today is in direct response to perceived failures of management, and seeks to demonstrate broad internal support for specific actions. they would be satisfied if they had an institutional remedy instead of just petitions to the "king"
- 5y ago
thomasahle 5y ago
> If you decide to start causing chaos and sowing discontent in your current kingdom, then you may be kicked out of it. You are right. It's hardly surprising. Most revolutions fail. Yet as outsiders we can appreciate the try, cheer on, or maybe even help (like the French did?) Maybe one day that help will be returned.

burnished 5y ago

Or, use your freedom to stay where you are and try to change things. You can't pull the freedom card to tell some one they should do something else. Its not consistent.

ruined 5y ago

to continue in that metaphor, it's worth noting that here and most anywhere with something resembling "the freedom this country offers" was formerly a monarchy in which people thinking critically about the way it was structured started causing chaos and sowing discontent, so they could try this other way that people didn't think would work. say about that what you will. it's not surprising that efforts are being made today to decentralize power within the private sphere and create broader rights and democratic management of capital. it's the place people feel most pressure in their lives today, feel the most helpless, and unable to act in their own interests or make their own way. and of course people who are invested in the current system of management will make arguments that it is perfectly rational and any other system cannot work. maybe everyone trying this will get kicked out. but i don't think that will discourage or prevent groups like this, because that doesn't kill the motivation. it's simply selection pressure for tactics that are more decentralized, more direct, popular, faster, and harder to shut down.

mostertoaster 5y ago
> Democratic management of capital That’s probably the best euphemism I’ve heard since “enhanced interrogation techniques”
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  That could just mean worker co-ops. What's so scary about Mondragón?
  - mostertoaster 5y ago
    I didn’t say anything was scary did I? I wasn’t necessarily trying to say it was like torture. It just sounds like something Bernie Sanders would say. It’s not socialism, it’s democratic socialism. I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      My larger point is that "democratic management of capital" doesn't have to mean socialism of any kind, it can mean worker co-ops, which can exist in social democratic, free market capitalist, hell even ancap utopian conceptions of stateless libertarian societies. It's just a management style. > I mean I’m fine with a democracy on the board of a company, I just don’t think it is wise to have everyone be on the board. Some companies are co-ops and have made it work. It depends, and is perhaps worth trying more.
- ruined 5y ago
  it's not a euphemism? it's a literalism. i don't think anyone would disagree that currently widespread models of management don't involve democratic processes. a lot of the activism internal to large companies today is in direct response to perceived failures of management, and seeks to demonstrate broad internal support for specific actions. they would be satisfied if they had an institutional remedy instead of just petitions to the "king"
5y ago

thomasahle 5y ago

> If you decide to start causing chaos and sowing discontent in your current kingdom, then you may be kicked out of it. You are right. It's hardly surprising. Most revolutions fail. Yet as outsiders we can appreciate the try, cheer on, or maybe even help (like the French did?) Maybe one day that help will be returned.