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People are okay with that because they're in a position to not have to care. Perhaps apple is correct in that this was because of deleting things they were not

People are okay with that because they're in a position to not have to care. Perhaps apple is correct in that this was because of deleting things they were not supposed to - but individuals advocating for a culture of "apple can do whatever because it's a company" is nodding along to union busting talking points. Tech sector has been very fortunate in the past to not have to unionize, but now as the workforce grows exponentially, wealth is concentrated, salaries relatively decrease, jobs become commoditized, and companies are overall too big. Most new devs today are not going to see the same autonomy. Devs are slaved in plenty of jobs already, and no they don't make enough nor can they just drop and make a startup using someone else's money. Those things are the top of the 1% of workers. It's demonstrated time and again that outrage at companies works. Marketers run the show, and they don't like bad publicity. In this case it's probably not enough to do anything. Apple has their fingers in too many pies and people can't afford to drop their lock in ecosystem.

da_big_ghey 5y ago
If I am in top 1% worker, and if union is generally flatten the salaries to make me receive less for others more, why should I not "nodding along on union busting talking points"? I like my very very large paycheck.
- nielsbot 5y ago
  Is this trolling? Either way, I hate this self-centered comment. Have you considered that a union could be good for all employees? What about setting minimum salary requirements? Maybe ensuring more of a company's profits are paid out to its workers?
- pstuart 5y ago
  That could be interpreted as "I've got mine, Jack. Why should I give a fuck about anybody else?" This raises the question: if you only care about yourself, why should we care about you?
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    Because he can do well regardless of how much you do or do not care for him. Many people would very much appreciate it if other members of society cared less about them. Care is not required for humans to participate in a mutually beneficial society.
    - pstuart 5y ago
      > Many people would very much appreciate it if other members of society cared less about them Um, could you elaborate?
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    Why it is selfish for me to want my paycheck but not when you want me to take some maybe paycut to pay you more?
- the_benno 5y ago
  because it's not a zero sum game? those union busting talking points keep you focused on your less-fortunate colleagues and and not the obscenely wealthy guy screwing the both of you over.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    But if i turn over to a union there is small assurance i will not take some pay cut. I doubt people making so much are top of bargaining priority list, probably more rank-and-files level are their focus. And then I have turned over my rights to majority, so it is suck up what my coworker wants or leave. It is similar for employer, i must suck up what it want or leave, but I already known these terms are okay with employer. Since i am not in majority bracket of workers this probably is not good.
    - the_benno 5y ago
      This is not how unions work. (source: am union member) Your claims and arguments are against some imagined shitty union-like thing that does not much resemble an actual union.
- objclxt 5y ago
  > if union is generally flatten the salaries to make me receive less for others more Who says that’s what will happen? Tom Cruise is a member of SAG, do you think he gets paid SAG union rates? Union busters in tech have done a fantastic job of convincing engineers that all unions are blue-collar. Which is funny, because you only have to look to Hollywood to see unions like SAG, the DGA, and the WGA which exist to protect all workers from exploitation and not cap compensation at all.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    Guild is some exception, not so common in unions. Always it end up more like typical aflcio union. I also have made some switch between front end and back end in job, have done some security job and back to normal developing, all these are usually harder in unions. Maybe in theory it is not required but in practice it is almost always this way. Also I have started prior tech company, it would have been hugely difficult if i had to make negotiations with unions.
  - asiachick 5y ago
    I don't have to see that at all. In fact here's a movie about how much those Hollywood Unions suck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ#t=16m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ#t=16m50s
  - krrrh 5y ago
    It’s the work rules that make a lot of American unions distasteful to workers. A lot of people just don’t want to work in a place where people routinely say stuff like, “that’s not my job, union rules.” The Wizard of Speed and Time is a great film about how difficult it is to be an independent creator in Hollywood due to the costs of getting anything started. The unions make it very hard to bootstrap anything without massive financing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ
    - klyrs 5y ago
      Funny thing about unions. If you form your own union, you get to write the rules. The agreement with the employer is a matter of negotiation, but the operation of the union is entirely the prerogative of the union as long as it's legal. Don't want to operate a holywood-style guild? Then don't.
- mrRandomGuy 5y ago
  nice, it only took two comments before we got to the "my paycheck very big, union very bad, why I join union? tomorrow will be like today, I will always be big paycheck"
- croes 5y ago
  Next time you need help by others remember "Why should they?" Your paycheck become worthless if society gets fucked up.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    I guess i forgot some consideration that disaffected brogrammers may start new revolution for payed only $85,000 not $125,000.
- Randosaurus 5y ago
  [dead]
- gatlin 5y ago
  Because you won't always have it so lucky and also because other people deserve nice pay and working conditions too.
fortran77 5y ago
I’m all for workers organizing. But these “protesters” were insincere and disingenuous. The very same Apple employees who were demanding that Apple fight Texas’ new abortion laws were also demanding that Apple support Palestine — where abortion is 100% illegal.
- magicalist 5y ago
  > The very same Apple employees who were demanding that Apple fight Texas’ new abortion laws were also demanding that Apple support Palestine — where abortion is 100% illegal. I can find no articles linking Janneke Parrish to opinions on Palestine, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. (and of course this is a vapid test for sincerity of beliefs. Are all people who want to ban abortion but supportive of Israel similarly insincere and disingenuous?)
prepend 5y ago
> apple can do whatever because it's a company I don’t think this is what I would advocate for. Me not bitching on Twitter is not the same as me not allowing Apple to do whatever they want. Smart engineers leaving is a big deal, even for Apple. There are ways to deliver constructive criticism. I’ve done it many times, sometimes successfully. And it never involved leaking to the press or talking bad about my org. I think there are needs for corporate governance and don’t like the “you’re either with us or against us” or equating not speaking publicly with condoning or allowing behavior. There are many other options.

da_big_ghey 5y ago

If I am in top 1% worker, and if union is generally flatten the salaries to make me receive less for others more, why should I not "nodding along on union busting talking points"? I like my very very large paycheck.

nielsbot 5y ago
Is this trolling? Either way, I hate this self-centered comment. Have you considered that a union could be good for all employees? What about setting minimum salary requirements? Maybe ensuring more of a company's profits are paid out to its workers?
pstuart 5y ago
That could be interpreted as "I've got mine, Jack. Why should I give a fuck about anybody else?" This raises the question: if you only care about yourself, why should we care about you?
- macinjosh 5y ago
  Because he can do well regardless of how much you do or do not care for him. Many people would very much appreciate it if other members of society cared less about them. Care is not required for humans to participate in a mutually beneficial society.
  - pstuart 5y ago
    > Many people would very much appreciate it if other members of society cared less about them Um, could you elaborate?
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  Why it is selfish for me to want my paycheck but not when you want me to take some maybe paycut to pay you more?
the_benno 5y ago
because it's not a zero sum game? those union busting talking points keep you focused on your less-fortunate colleagues and and not the obscenely wealthy guy screwing the both of you over.
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  But if i turn over to a union there is small assurance i will not take some pay cut. I doubt people making so much are top of bargaining priority list, probably more rank-and-files level are their focus. And then I have turned over my rights to majority, so it is suck up what my coworker wants or leave. It is similar for employer, i must suck up what it want or leave, but I already known these terms are okay with employer. Since i am not in majority bracket of workers this probably is not good.
  - the_benno 5y ago
    This is not how unions work. (source: am union member) Your claims and arguments are against some imagined shitty union-like thing that does not much resemble an actual union.
objclxt 5y ago
> if union is generally flatten the salaries to make me receive less for others more Who says that’s what will happen? Tom Cruise is a member of SAG, do you think he gets paid SAG union rates? Union busters in tech have done a fantastic job of convincing engineers that all unions are blue-collar. Which is funny, because you only have to look to Hollywood to see unions like SAG, the DGA, and the WGA which exist to protect all workers from exploitation and not cap compensation at all.
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  Guild is some exception, not so common in unions. Always it end up more like typical aflcio union. I also have made some switch between front end and back end in job, have done some security job and back to normal developing, all these are usually harder in unions. Maybe in theory it is not required but in practice it is almost always this way. Also I have started prior tech company, it would have been hugely difficult if i had to make negotiations with unions.
- asiachick 5y ago
  I don't have to see that at all. In fact here's a movie about how much those Hollywood Unions suck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ#t=16m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ#t=16m50s
- krrrh 5y ago
  It’s the work rules that make a lot of American unions distasteful to workers. A lot of people just don’t want to work in a place where people routinely say stuff like, “that’s not my job, union rules.” The Wizard of Speed and Time is a great film about how difficult it is to be an independent creator in Hollywood due to the costs of getting anything started. The unions make it very hard to bootstrap anything without massive financing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Funny thing about unions. If you form your own union, you get to write the rules. The agreement with the employer is a matter of negotiation, but the operation of the union is entirely the prerogative of the union as long as it's legal. Don't want to operate a holywood-style guild? Then don't.
mrRandomGuy 5y ago
nice, it only took two comments before we got to the "my paycheck very big, union very bad, why I join union? tomorrow will be like today, I will always be big paycheck"
croes 5y ago
Next time you need help by others remember "Why should they?" Your paycheck become worthless if society gets fucked up.
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  I guess i forgot some consideration that disaffected brogrammers may start new revolution for payed only $85,000 not $125,000.
Randosaurus 5y ago
[dead]
gatlin 5y ago
Because you won't always have it so lucky and also because other people deserve nice pay and working conditions too.

fortran77 5y ago

I’m all for workers organizing. But these “protesters” were insincere and disingenuous. The very same Apple employees who were demanding that Apple fight Texas’ new abortion laws were also demanding that Apple support Palestine — where abortion is 100% illegal.

magicalist 5y ago
> The very same Apple employees who were demanding that Apple fight Texas’ new abortion laws were also demanding that Apple support Palestine — where abortion is 100% illegal. I can find no articles linking Janneke Parrish to opinions on Palestine, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. (and of course this is a vapid test for sincerity of beliefs. Are all people who want to ban abortion but supportive of Israel similarly insincere and disingenuous?)

prepend 5y ago

> apple can do whatever because it's a company I don’t think this is what I would advocate for. Me not bitching on Twitter is not the same as me not allowing Apple to do whatever they want. Smart engineers leaving is a big deal, even for Apple. There are ways to deliver constructive criticism. I’ve done it many times, sometimes successfully. And it never involved leaking to the press or talking bad about my org. I think there are needs for corporate governance and don’t like the “you’re either with us or against us” or equating not speaking publicly with condoning or allowing behavior. There are many other options.