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Many of the additions to Python in the past decade have been very impressive, but am I wrong in thinking that they suffer from a kind of diminishing marginal be

Many of the additions to Python in the past decade have been very impressive, but am I wrong in thinking that they suffer from a kind of diminishing marginal benefit? If I am building a project where concurrency or asynchrony are essential, am I going to choose Python? If I need to bolt these on to an existing project to meet a deadline, how much runway do I really get from these enhancements before I hit the limitations of the language, and need a new tool anyway? I love Python, and use it a great deal, but I’ve not seen anything in my experience to assuage these doubts. Happy to be convinced otherwise, though. I’m sure there are circumstances I haven’t thought of.

unityByFreedom 5y ago
This is more about making parallel python easier to use. It's already fast if you know about the current GIL workarounds. It'd be nice to not have to monkey patch, for example.
- huetius 5y ago
  Quite true. Definitely a benefit. I guess my point is that if you are leaning on Python for performant concurrent operations, you are likely to also be thinking about how to isolate that component for a rewrite, monkey-patching or no.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    > how to isolate that component At the most basic level you only need to put the logic into a function. Of course, the cost of that adjustment may vary, so more options are good. If Python becomes easier to use in this respect then everyone wins.
pansa2 5y ago
> am I going to choose Python? IMO most of the additions to Python in the past decade haven’t been aimed at people choosing a language, but at people working on large existing Python codebases who have too much inertia to change languages. The cause of this is that the people in charge of language design (first Guido at Dropbox and now members of the Steering Council) are in exactly that situation. The effect is that Python has lost focus on what it was originally good for (executable pseudocode for scripting) in favour of adding mediocre support for concurrency, static typing, and now pattern matching.
- frenchy 5y ago
  People have been using Python for way beyond what it was "originally good for" as long as I've been a programmer (close to 20 years). For some reason people seem to think that since Python code is easy to read, that it's a "scripting language" (whatever that means). There are a lot of use cases for a language that's easy to do easy things in, and where performance doesn't really matter (or can be sorted out later.
jillesvangurp 5y ago
> If I am building a project where concurrency or asynchrony are essential, Like many data processing & data science jobs. Also anything doing disk IO, network IO, etc. Or anything running on a machine with multiple cores (i.e. almost any machine these days). So, the sweet spot would be running data jobs running on multi core machines doing things with files and accessing things over a network. That sounds a lot like a core use case for Python. Python works around this by using processes and outsourcing all the pesky difficult stuff to native components. It kind of works, hence the popularity but it does add a few layers of complexity and it is needlessly slow. It seems the biggest blocker for removing the Gil has simply been the python community itself having talked themselves into this being hard/undesirable and resisting change. This little quote in the article is a great example of this: > as Guido van Rossum noted, the Python developers could always just take the performance improvements without the concurrency work and be even faster yet.

unityByFreedom 5y ago

This is more about making parallel python easier to use. It's already fast if you know about the current GIL workarounds. It'd be nice to not have to monkey patch, for example.

huetius 5y ago
Quite true. Definitely a benefit. I guess my point is that if you are leaning on Python for performant concurrent operations, you are likely to also be thinking about how to isolate that component for a rewrite, monkey-patching or no.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  > how to isolate that component At the most basic level you only need to put the logic into a function. Of course, the cost of that adjustment may vary, so more options are good. If Python becomes easier to use in this respect then everyone wins.

pansa2 5y ago

> am I going to choose Python? IMO most of the additions to Python in the past decade haven’t been aimed at people choosing a language, but at people working on large existing Python codebases who have too much inertia to change languages. The cause of this is that the people in charge of language design (first Guido at Dropbox and now members of the Steering Council) are in exactly that situation. The effect is that Python has lost focus on what it was originally good for (executable pseudocode for scripting) in favour of adding mediocre support for concurrency, static typing, and now pattern matching.

frenchy 5y ago
People have been using Python for way beyond what it was "originally good for" as long as I've been a programmer (close to 20 years). For some reason people seem to think that since Python code is easy to read, that it's a "scripting language" (whatever that means). There are a lot of use cases for a language that's easy to do easy things in, and where performance doesn't really matter (or can be sorted out later.

jillesvangurp 5y ago

> If I am building a project where concurrency or asynchrony are essential, Like many data processing & data science jobs. Also anything doing disk IO, network IO, etc. Or anything running on a machine with multiple cores (i.e. almost any machine these days). So, the sweet spot would be running data jobs running on multi core machines doing things with files and accessing things over a network. That sounds a lot like a core use case for Python. Python works around this by using processes and outsourcing all the pesky difficult stuff to native components. It kind of works, hence the popularity but it does add a few layers of complexity and it is needlessly slow. It seems the biggest blocker for removing the Gil has simply been the python community itself having talked themselves into this being hard/undesirable and resisting change. This little quote in the article is a great example of this: > as Guido van Rossum noted, the Python developers could always just take the performance improvements without the concurrency work and be even faster yet.