4 ms·

>Furthermore pretty much everybody in every non-western country is a TERF. I don't think you know a lot of the meanings of words you're using. Firstly "TERF" i

by sigmar 5y ago

>Furthermore pretty much everybody in every non-western country is a TERF. I don't think you know a lot of the meanings of words you're using. Firstly "TERF" ideology is pretty new and not the "traditional position of gender debates." It branched off of recent feminist movements. Most of non-western countries are not TERFs, probably not even feminist by most current definitions, and definitely not radical.

da39a3ee 5y ago
The definition being used is in the first sentence of my post. Yes perhaps it's non standard, but "TERF" is a pejorative invented by pro-trans activists.
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  TERF was a term coined by TERFs who then backed away from it when it started being used derogatorily.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    Oh, OK, sounds like you know more about it than me. I'm just talking about the position of retaining a concept of women meaning humans with two X chromosomes who can bear children, and being a feminist meaning recognizing that the group thus-defined has been severely mistreated by men over the centuries and to the present day. I honestly can't really believe that any of this needs explaining, it's just surreal.
    - greyface- 5y ago
      > women meaning humans with two X chromosomes who can bear children This definition also excludes: * humans with one X chromosome (1 per 2000 to 5000 humans born [1]) * humans with three X chromosomes (1 per 1000 women born [2]) * infertile women (6% of married women under 45 in the US [3]) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy_X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy_X [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/infertility/ https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/infertility/
      - da39a3ee 5y ago
        Yes! Exactly that's the point. Biology's complicated, of course there are edge cases. That in no way alters the fact that the core concept is that a woman is an XX human. Re infertility, don't be silly. Yes I didn't word it perfectly, I meant "XX, i.e. the sex that bears children in mammals". Do you know what anisogamy means? This stuff wasn't complicated 20 years ago and funnily enough the science hasn't changed.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I meant "XX, i.e. the sex that bears children in mammals". There are fertile XY females among mammals (including humans.)
        da39a3ee 5y ago
        Can you post a link to what you’re referring to? I don’t think I was aware that there were fertile XY females in humans. But in any case, the point is that biology is messy and always has rare exceptions. As an engineer I’m sure you appreciate the value of simple definitions that capture 99% of the diversity accurately.
        da39a3ee 5y ago
        I found one paper describing one case. Is that what you're referring to? If so I'm guessing you haven't had much exposure to biology -- definitions always have counter examples in biology. The important thing is to have simple definitions that get at the core conceptual structure. "Females are XX humans; males are XY humans" is one such definition, questioned only by a small contingent of non scientific social activists in western countries in the last decade or so.

by sigmar 5y ago

da39a3ee 5y ago

The definition being used is in the first sentence of my post. Yes perhaps it's non standard, but "TERF" is a pejorative invented by pro-trans activists.

plorkyeran 5y ago
TERF was a term coined by TERFs who then backed away from it when it started being used derogatorily.
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  Oh, OK, sounds like you know more about it than me. I'm just talking about the position of retaining a concept of women meaning humans with two X chromosomes who can bear children, and being a feminist meaning recognizing that the group thus-defined has been severely mistreated by men over the centuries and to the present day. I honestly can't really believe that any of this needs explaining, it's just surreal.
  - greyface- 5y ago
    > women meaning humans with two X chromosomes who can bear children This definition also excludes: * humans with one X chromosome (1 per 2000 to 5000 humans born [1]) * humans with three X chromosomes (1 per 1000 women born [2]) * infertile women (6% of married women under 45 in the US [3]) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy_X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy_X [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/infertility/ https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/infertility/
    - da39a3ee 5y ago
      Yes! Exactly that's the point. Biology's complicated, of course there are edge cases. That in no way alters the fact that the core concept is that a woman is an XX human. Re infertility, don't be silly. Yes I didn't word it perfectly, I meant "XX, i.e. the sex that bears children in mammals". Do you know what anisogamy means? This stuff wasn't complicated 20 years ago and funnily enough the science hasn't changed.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I meant "XX, i.e. the sex that bears children in mammals". There are fertile XY females among mammals (including humans.)
        da39a3ee 5y ago
        Can you post a link to what you’re referring to? I don’t think I was aware that there were fertile XY females in humans. But in any case, the point is that biology is messy and always has rare exceptions. As an engineer I’m sure you appreciate the value of simple definitions that capture 99% of the diversity accurately.
        da39a3ee 5y ago
        I found one paper describing one case. Is that what you're referring to? If so I'm guessing you haven't had much exposure to biology -- definitions always have counter examples in biology. The important thing is to have simple definitions that get at the core conceptual structure. "Females are XX humans; males are XY humans" is one such definition, questioned only by a small contingent of non scientific social activists in western countries in the last decade or so.