4 ms·

this is the same exact reasoning people use to justify being homophobic

Joeboy 5y ago
Going with that comparison, it's like having an especially vicious rage towards feminist women who are homophobic, despite almost everybody else also being homophobic.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  Transphobia is contradictory to any definition of feminism rooted in the actual history of feminism. TERF ideology depends on the belief that trans women are confused men, trans men are confused lesbians, and nonbinary people are just confused.
  - Joeboy 5y ago
    Well, I've been hanging around feminist women for some decades and my perception of events is that a significant proprtion of women who used to just be called feminists now get dragged for being TERFs.
    - mkr-hn 5y ago
      My feminists can beat up your feminists. Seriously, what is this, third grade? Yes, some people latch on to movements without really understanding them. Not everyone reads theory. It's inevitable with movements that try to be inclusive, and preferable to the alternative. They can still call themselves feminists, and I can call them bad feminists.
      - Joeboy 5y ago
        > My feminists can beat up your feminists. They in fact have in the past.
        mkr-hn 5y ago
        I promise more cis women have attacked trans women than the reverse. Sometimes they even go after women they assume are trans! A weird side-effect of the new wave of transphobia is that even people who consider themselves cis but present in a non-conforming way are being attacked in bathrooms. And not by trans women.
        Joeboy 5y ago
        Well that sounds bad if true. I have never heard of this happening and the only violence I'm aware of in my circles has been in the other direction (there is an actual criminal conviction involved).
        gaganyaan 5y ago
        Do you have sources/links for that?
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    Sounds like the TERFs have a very reasonable position that doesn't involve the rest of society changing the definitions of words based on extremely questionable socially and politically motivated soft sciences.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    I wouldn't use the word "confused" because it sounds derogatory. But substitute that with "trans women are men who feel that they are female", and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view isn't it? You may not like it very much, but you surely agree that it's understandable and not malicious or cruel? It is after all the position of the vast majority of people on the planet, and that of most people in the usa and western europe, except for a left-leaning contingent under the age of 40. (That statement is approximate of course)
da39a3ee 5y ago
The difference being that pro-gay activists are not doing any of the bad and absurd things that pro-trans activists are doing: attacking freedom of speech, denying the biological basis of sex in the ape species Homo sapiens, ending people's careers who disagree with them, attacking feminism, damaging pro-gay movements, canceling people, etc. You don't get to assume that people aren't angry about the behavior of pro-trans activists or are too scared to say so publicly: they have behaved awfully in recent years.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  this is basically the “angry black man” defense - just because some people aren’t protesting in a way you approve of doesn’t mean it’s ok to hate the group indiscriminately
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    I hope this doesn't need saying, but it's the activists I am criticizing -- the majority of whom are not trans. I have no criticisms whatsoever of anyone on the basis of their gender identity or sexuality. But yes, if the activist community fails to disassociate itself from / speak out against radicals who are harming people, then that activist community is going to receive criticism.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      it’s not a singular community, there’s no spokesperson - this is like trying to hold “anonymous” accountable… it’s the same old rhetoric people have been using to discredit all activists
      - Joeboy 5y ago
        That'd also go for TERFs (or GC people or whatever), right? I sort of agree, in that the groups are composed of individuals and it's not entirely fair to hold them responsible for things they didn't personally do. I also think if you see a political community as having some sort of problematic culture it's reasonable to say so.
da39a3ee 5y ago
No, you must surely can see that these are not symmetric: no-one questions whether gayness exists, and no-one questions whether people exist who identify with a gender that's not their birth sex. But there's HUGE disagreement across the world about whether to use the word "woman" for a person born male who identifies as female. Even if you are very clear where you personally stand on that question, you surely see that vast numbers of people across the world believe the answer is "no"? There's no analogous question regarding homosexuality.

Going with that comparison, it's like having an especially vicious rage towards feminist women who are homophobic, despite almost everybody else also being homophobic.

mkr-hn 5y ago
Transphobia is contradictory to any definition of feminism rooted in the actual history of feminism. TERF ideology depends on the belief that trans women are confused men, trans men are confused lesbians, and nonbinary people are just confused.
- Joeboy 5y ago
  Well, I've been hanging around feminist women for some decades and my perception of events is that a significant proprtion of women who used to just be called feminists now get dragged for being TERFs.
  - mkr-hn 5y ago
    My feminists can beat up your feminists. Seriously, what is this, third grade? Yes, some people latch on to movements without really understanding them. Not everyone reads theory. It's inevitable with movements that try to be inclusive, and preferable to the alternative. They can still call themselves feminists, and I can call them bad feminists.
    - Joeboy 5y ago
      > My feminists can beat up your feminists. They in fact have in the past.
      - mkr-hn 5y ago
        I promise more cis women have attacked trans women than the reverse. Sometimes they even go after women they assume are trans! A weird side-effect of the new wave of transphobia is that even people who consider themselves cis but present in a non-conforming way are being attacked in bathrooms. And not by trans women.
        Joeboy 5y ago
        Well that sounds bad if true. I have never heard of this happening and the only violence I'm aware of in my circles has been in the other direction (there is an actual criminal conviction involved).
        gaganyaan 5y ago
        Do you have sources/links for that?
- wayneftw 5y ago
  Sounds like the TERFs have a very reasonable position that doesn't involve the rest of society changing the definitions of words based on extremely questionable socially and politically motivated soft sciences.
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  I wouldn't use the word "confused" because it sounds derogatory. But substitute that with "trans women are men who feel that they are female", and that's a perfectly reasonable point of view isn't it? You may not like it very much, but you surely agree that it's understandable and not malicious or cruel? It is after all the position of the vast majority of people on the planet, and that of most people in the usa and western europe, except for a left-leaning contingent under the age of 40. (That statement is approximate of course)

da39a3ee 5y ago

The difference being that pro-gay activists are not doing any of the bad and absurd things that pro-trans activists are doing: attacking freedom of speech, denying the biological basis of sex in the ape species Homo sapiens, ending people's careers who disagree with them, attacking feminism, damaging pro-gay movements, canceling people, etc. You don't get to assume that people aren't angry about the behavior of pro-trans activists or are too scared to say so publicly: they have behaved awfully in recent years.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
this is basically the “angry black man” defense - just because some people aren’t protesting in a way you approve of doesn’t mean it’s ok to hate the group indiscriminately
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  I hope this doesn't need saying, but it's the activists I am criticizing -- the majority of whom are not trans. I have no criticisms whatsoever of anyone on the basis of their gender identity or sexuality. But yes, if the activist community fails to disassociate itself from / speak out against radicals who are harming people, then that activist community is going to receive criticism.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    it’s not a singular community, there’s no spokesperson - this is like trying to hold “anonymous” accountable… it’s the same old rhetoric people have been using to discredit all activists
    - Joeboy 5y ago
      That'd also go for TERFs (or GC people or whatever), right? I sort of agree, in that the groups are composed of individuals and it's not entirely fair to hold them responsible for things they didn't personally do. I also think if you see a political community as having some sort of problematic culture it's reasonable to say so.

da39a3ee 5y ago

No, you must surely can see that these are not symmetric: no-one questions whether gayness exists, and no-one questions whether people exist who identify with a gender that's not their birth sex. But there's HUGE disagreement across the world about whether to use the word "woman" for a person born male who identifies as female. Even if you are very clear where you personally stand on that question, you surely see that vast numbers of people across the world believe the answer is "no"? There's no analogous question regarding homosexuality.