12 ms·

I just watched it. I don’t feel like I live in a real world anymore. This whole outrage is manufactured and there are so many resellers. Dave spends the last 1

by AJRF 5y ago

I just watched it. I don’t feel like I live in a real world anymore. This whole outrage is manufactured and there are so many resellers. Dave spends the last 15 minutes of the show telling a heartbreaking story of how he made friends with a transgender woman, and invited her to open his show for him, she sucked but then when she was being herself during the show and afterwards backstage she had everyone howling with laughter because she was so naturally funny but she needed to work on her show to get that side out. She defended Chapelle on Twitter and got dogpiled for it and killed herself (not 100% if there was a correlation but sure it didn’t help). Dave got to the point that he didn’t like her or find her funny because she was transgender but because she was a person. She was another human. Not someone who hid behind a label or an identity, but someone who was a human going through the same shit we all go through. That’s what identity politics and extreme politicalisation denies people, humanity. How people watched that show and got that he’s a transphobe from it just blows my mind.

jmcgough 5y ago
He said that he's on "team TERF" and compared being trans to wearing black face. It's not "manufactured", there are a lot of people upset that he's punching down against a vulnerable community.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  This is, I think, the key detail. Everything else is subjective enough that it's easy for people inclined to dismiss the whole thing to make a reason up. There's really no way to misunderstand those things. He's declared an allegiance with people who spend all their time on Twitter and forums dehumanizing trans people, often using the same insinuation that being a woman is the same as doing blackface. Maybe he's ignorant of what he's really saying, but that's not an excuse.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    Does "being a TERF" mean that you side with women like J.K. Rowling defending traditional positions on gender debates rather than siding with a minority of vocal pro-trans activists who are deliberately causing trouble and don't represent all trans people? If so then I'm a TERF, my mom's a TERF, in fact all mom's I know over the age of 50 are TERFs. Furthermore pretty much everybody in every non-western country is a TERF. So I don't think it's surprising that Dave Chapelle might be a TERF and I don't see why you're talking about TERFs as if they are somehow to be looked down upon or despised.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      this is the same exact reasoning people use to justify being homophobic
      - Joeboy 5y ago
        Going with that comparison, it's like having an especially vicious rage towards feminist women who are homophobic, despite almost everybody else also being homophobic.
        mkr-hn 5y ago
        Transphobia is contradictory to any definition of feminism rooted in the actual history of feminism. TERF ideology depends on the belief that trans women are confused men, trans men are confused lesbians, and nonbinary people are just confused.
        Joeboy 5y ago
        Well, I've been hanging around feminist women for some decades and my perception of events is that a significant proprtion of women who used to just be called feminists now get dragged for being TERFs.
        mkr-hn 5y ago
        My feminists can beat up your feminists. Seriously, what is this, third grade? Yes, some people latch on to movements without really understanding them. Not everyone reads theory. It's inevitable with movements that try to be inclusive, and preferable to the alternative. They can still call themselves feminists, and I can call them bad feminists.
        Joeboy 5y ago
        > My feminists can beat up your feminists. They in fact have in the past.
  - brnt 5y ago
    > He's declared an allegiance with people who spend all their time on Twitter and forums dehumanizing trans people That's how you could interpret the TERF joke, but then you did ignore the rest of the show where he basically says the opposite.
  - david38 5y ago
    Not agreeing that you belong to a biologically defined community that has a unique set of issues is about as far from from dehumanizing as it gets. By this argument, blacks are dehumanizing by not accepting whites who want to be black, even though any biologist can tell you “race” doesn’t exist in any meaningful way. In fact the left successfully used this argument to defeat the popularity of far-right white supremacy groups.
- gorilla_fight 5y ago
  > compared being trans to wearing black face He also compared transwomen genitalia to vegetarian meat substitutes (Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger)
  - neilsense 5y ago
    In relation to being able to give birth. One more person that hasn't watched it.
  - 0xy 5y ago
    Even doctors who perform transgender surgeries have publicly stated concerns about the end results of those operations, most publicly the doctor who performed surgery on the reality star Jazz Jennings. In fact, he warned against the use of the surgeries at all because of the questionable results. [1] There's thousands of pieces of anecdotes in various trans subreddits focused around surgeries, but I won't link them because they're very disturbing. They're easy to find if you wish. [1] https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-doctors-warn-against-sex-144300599.html https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-doctors-warn-against-sex-...
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      > In fact, he warned against the use of the surgeries at all because of the questionable results. No. She said blocking puberty at the 1st visible signs had drawbacks for vaginoplasty later.[1] This isn't news to people in the field. Not blocking puberty has drawbacks too. Doctors, patients, and parents have to weigh the pros and cons. [1] https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-...
      - 0xy 5y ago
        The ethics of using risky dangerous drugs on children (who grow out of GD over 50% of the time) is pretty clear cut to me. You risk permanent bone damage for the minority of cases where it has some advantages? The "advantages" are apparently easier transgender surgery, which in its current form is essentially a disaster. The operation is brutal and the results are rarely good. The majority of the time there are serious, life-changing consequences. All this risk for something that I think even transgender people would agree isn't there yet in terms of utility nor aesthetics. After all that, the suicidality of transgender people post-operation is virtually the same as pre-operation. For those reasons, I find it extremely hard to support the use of risky drugs and a very rocky pathway for children who have GD. The fact transgender people tend to ignore these risks, paper over them and encourage questioning people onto this path isn't a good look. The drugs are dangerous, irreversible and have a very questionable upside. Full stop.
- Graffur 5y ago
  If you watch it you'll be pretty embarrassed about using the term "punching down"
- david38 5y ago
  There are people upset he doesn’t agree with them. They are trying to paint this as him bullying a vulnerable community. If a Netflix show makes a group feel threatened and reacts by trying to censor him, that community should just stop watching him. By the reviews from actual people, not people paid to write reviews, I’d say there are a lot more people who enjoyed the show.
hintymad 5y ago
Netflix made the right move. Companies should not tolerate intolerant people. Sowell put it well: Most people on the left are not opposed to freedom. They are just in favor of all sorts of things that are incompatible with freedom. Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you do not approve of." Maybe those dynamite activists can learn a lesson about freedom and responsibility.
dr-detroit 5y ago
its just social media working as designed
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
airpoint 5y ago
That “heartbreaking” story he told at the end of the show was a literal parallel to “I can’t be racist, I got a black friend”.
micromacrofoot 5y ago
ehhh, I watched it and having a trans friend doesn’t give him a free pass just like the old “I have a black friend” doesn’t I’ve already seen posts from anti-trans folks praising him, and “i’m team terf” memes. I don’t think the material was funny or provocative enough to warrant the validation it’s creating amongst bigots (even if they’re missing the point). He seemingly saw this coming and seemed to be preemptively playing defense the entire special. I’m not going to “cancel” him or whatever, but the whole thing seems lazy on multiple fronts. He intentionally stirred a very divisive pot so people would talk about him, and he tried to set himself up as the smart guy for “seeing” obvious backlash coming.
- Graffur 5y ago
  Did you watch it though.. its not about him having a trans friend? He states multiple times he's a feminist and relates to struggles people have in life. He sides with JK Rowling. That doesn't make him bad.. that makes him sane!
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    it isn’t a “sides” thing really… trans women are asking to be treated like women and some people feel the need to say “no”
    - 0xy 5y ago
      They're asking for laws from compelled speech legislation (in Canada), to censorship legislation and also leveling death threats at their opposition when they make valid counterpoints (like J.K. Rowling, who received thousands of death threats from rabid trans activists). It's not accurate to say they're asking to be treated like women. They're asking for expansive accommodations above what anyone else would receive. Then there's the issue of trans activists lying about the safety of hormone blocker use in children, which is NOT reversible nor is it safe. There is an established link between the use of those products and irreversible bone density loss. If you mention any of this, you get viciously attacked on a personal level.
    - 5y ago
undoware 5y ago
Not knowing where to begin, I'll simply say that I was political before I was a person, because your culture made me this way. There is no part of my personhood that is not political. Chapelle rounded out his bit by embracing trans exclusionism, thereby denying that trans women -- including the woman he had backstage to, as you so delicately put it, suck him off -- are doing anything other than lying about who they --- we --- really are. As though we all cared enough about you all to lie to you. Lying takes effort; you're not worth it. Which is why we transition in the first place. The only people denying humanity are Chapelle and his supporters.
- deanCommie 5y ago
  He specifically said in the show "Trans women are women" (or the double negative version which is "I am not saying that to say, that trans women aren’t women") He also used the term "man with a vagina" during a genuine heartfelt admonition of the cruelty of bathroom bills. (Which would also be correctly gendering transmen) So yes, he did end the show with a deliberate misgendering of his trans friend for a joke. And that to me is problematic for sure. But on balance this fits with the rest of his style of humor - he calls women bitches in the show too. Does that mean he is sexist? Or is it an artistic choice. I know people that despise him just for that even before we get to any of his positions on trans people. But i think fundamentally, on balance, he is pro trans rights, and he recognizes trans people's brain gender. Should he have said "I'm team TERF?" fuck no. Should he have said that he supports JKR? No. Now all the people who do NOT agree with all of the above points are leaping to support him - and they haven't seen the show any more than his critics. But i do think he had some valid points. JKR was wrong. Unquestionably. But the reaction she got was much more extreme than the points she made. People treat her as if she was calling for the genocide of trans people.
0x5f3759df-i 5y ago
I watched it as well. All nuance on the topic has been obliterated by the topic being absorbed into the larger culture war, but above anything it just wasn't funny. On net, the people calling Chapelle out are more correct than his defenders. He really did spend an hour making unfunny jokes at trans people's expense. Was the whole thing as bad as many who didn't watch it are assuming based on a few cherry picked quotes? No, but it was still pretty bad. Should Netflix remove it? I wouldn't say so, but I think much of the criticism is well deserved if lacking nuance.
- david38 5y ago
  What’s unfunny to you is funny to someone else. Almost all jokes are at someone’s expense. Nothing illegal was said, so if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple. I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do.
  - stemlord 5y ago
    >if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple. No, it's not that simple. I hate this term but Chapelle is by all means a THOUGHT LEADER, meaning he has a megaphone into the minds of huge swaths of the population esp with a platform like Netflix. Everyone must fight for the world they want to live in. >I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do Get over yourself. YOU are the one who's tired?
  - 0x5f3759df-i 5y ago
    The only one telling people what to do here is you
CodeGlitch 5y ago
I've not seen the show, but I bet if it wasn't such a money-maker for Netflix it would have been taken down without a second thought - as in it wouldn't be worth Netflix's time to try and defend themselves from the trans-activists. See also J.K Rowling and her book publisher.
Graffur 5y ago
Glad I watched it before this spoiler..

by AJRF 5y ago

jmcgough 5y ago

He said that he's on "team TERF" and compared being trans to wearing black face. It's not "manufactured", there are a lot of people upset that he's punching down against a vulnerable community.

mkr-hn 5y ago
This is, I think, the key detail. Everything else is subjective enough that it's easy for people inclined to dismiss the whole thing to make a reason up. There's really no way to misunderstand those things. He's declared an allegiance with people who spend all their time on Twitter and forums dehumanizing trans people, often using the same insinuation that being a woman is the same as doing blackface. Maybe he's ignorant of what he's really saying, but that's not an excuse.
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  Does "being a TERF" mean that you side with women like J.K. Rowling defending traditional positions on gender debates rather than siding with a minority of vocal pro-trans activists who are deliberately causing trouble and don't represent all trans people? If so then I'm a TERF, my mom's a TERF, in fact all mom's I know over the age of 50 are TERFs. Furthermore pretty much everybody in every non-western country is a TERF. So I don't think it's surprising that Dave Chapelle might be a TERF and I don't see why you're talking about TERFs as if they are somehow to be looked down upon or despised.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    this is the same exact reasoning people use to justify being homophobic
    - Joeboy 5y ago
      Going with that comparison, it's like having an especially vicious rage towards feminist women who are homophobic, despite almost everybody else also being homophobic.
      - mkr-hn 5y ago
        Transphobia is contradictory to any definition of feminism rooted in the actual history of feminism. TERF ideology depends on the belief that trans women are confused men, trans men are confused lesbians, and nonbinary people are just confused.
        Joeboy 5y ago
        Well, I've been hanging around feminist women for some decades and my perception of events is that a significant proprtion of women who used to just be called feminists now get dragged for being TERFs.
        mkr-hn 5y ago
        My feminists can beat up your feminists. Seriously, what is this, third grade? Yes, some people latch on to movements without really understanding them. Not everyone reads theory. It's inevitable with movements that try to be inclusive, and preferable to the alternative. They can still call themselves feminists, and I can call them bad feminists.
        Joeboy 5y ago
        > My feminists can beat up your feminists. They in fact have in the past.
- brnt 5y ago
  > He's declared an allegiance with people who spend all their time on Twitter and forums dehumanizing trans people That's how you could interpret the TERF joke, but then you did ignore the rest of the show where he basically says the opposite.
- david38 5y ago
  Not agreeing that you belong to a biologically defined community that has a unique set of issues is about as far from from dehumanizing as it gets. By this argument, blacks are dehumanizing by not accepting whites who want to be black, even though any biologist can tell you “race” doesn’t exist in any meaningful way. In fact the left successfully used this argument to defeat the popularity of far-right white supremacy groups.
gorilla_fight 5y ago
> compared being trans to wearing black face He also compared transwomen genitalia to vegetarian meat substitutes (Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger)
- neilsense 5y ago
  In relation to being able to give birth. One more person that hasn't watched it.
- 0xy 5y ago
  Even doctors who perform transgender surgeries have publicly stated concerns about the end results of those operations, most publicly the doctor who performed surgery on the reality star Jazz Jennings. In fact, he warned against the use of the surgeries at all because of the questionable results. [1] There's thousands of pieces of anecdotes in various trans subreddits focused around surgeries, but I won't link them because they're very disturbing. They're easy to find if you wish. [1] https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-doctors-warn-against-sex-144300599.html https://news.yahoo.com/transgender-doctors-warn-against-sex-...
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    > In fact, he warned against the use of the surgeries at all because of the questionable results. No. She said blocking puberty at the 1st visible signs had drawbacks for vaginoplasty later.[1] This isn't news to people in the field. Not blocking puberty has drawbacks too. Doctors, patients, and parents have to weigh the pros and cons. [1] https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-...
    - 0xy 5y ago
      The ethics of using risky dangerous drugs on children (who grow out of GD over 50% of the time) is pretty clear cut to me. You risk permanent bone damage for the minority of cases where it has some advantages? The "advantages" are apparently easier transgender surgery, which in its current form is essentially a disaster. The operation is brutal and the results are rarely good. The majority of the time there are serious, life-changing consequences. All this risk for something that I think even transgender people would agree isn't there yet in terms of utility nor aesthetics. After all that, the suicidality of transgender people post-operation is virtually the same as pre-operation. For those reasons, I find it extremely hard to support the use of risky drugs and a very rocky pathway for children who have GD. The fact transgender people tend to ignore these risks, paper over them and encourage questioning people onto this path isn't a good look. The drugs are dangerous, irreversible and have a very questionable upside. Full stop.
Graffur 5y ago
If you watch it you'll be pretty embarrassed about using the term "punching down"
david38 5y ago
There are people upset he doesn’t agree with them. They are trying to paint this as him bullying a vulnerable community. If a Netflix show makes a group feel threatened and reacts by trying to censor him, that community should just stop watching him. By the reviews from actual people, not people paid to write reviews, I’d say there are a lot more people who enjoyed the show.

hintymad 5y ago

Netflix made the right move. Companies should not tolerate intolerant people. Sowell put it well: Most people on the left are not opposed to freedom. They are just in favor of all sorts of things that are incompatible with freedom. Freedom ultimately means the right of other people to do things that you do not approve of." Maybe those dynamite activists can learn a lesson about freedom and responsibility.

dr-detroit 5y ago

its just social media working as designed

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

airpoint 5y ago

That “heartbreaking” story he told at the end of the show was a literal parallel to “I can’t be racist, I got a black friend”.

micromacrofoot 5y ago

ehhh, I watched it and having a trans friend doesn’t give him a free pass just like the old “I have a black friend” doesn’t I’ve already seen posts from anti-trans folks praising him, and “i’m team terf” memes. I don’t think the material was funny or provocative enough to warrant the validation it’s creating amongst bigots (even if they’re missing the point). He seemingly saw this coming and seemed to be preemptively playing defense the entire special. I’m not going to “cancel” him or whatever, but the whole thing seems lazy on multiple fronts. He intentionally stirred a very divisive pot so people would talk about him, and he tried to set himself up as the smart guy for “seeing” obvious backlash coming.

Graffur 5y ago
Did you watch it though.. its not about him having a trans friend? He states multiple times he's a feminist and relates to struggles people have in life. He sides with JK Rowling. That doesn't make him bad.. that makes him sane!
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  it isn’t a “sides” thing really… trans women are asking to be treated like women and some people feel the need to say “no”
  - 0xy 5y ago
    They're asking for laws from compelled speech legislation (in Canada), to censorship legislation and also leveling death threats at their opposition when they make valid counterpoints (like J.K. Rowling, who received thousands of death threats from rabid trans activists). It's not accurate to say they're asking to be treated like women. They're asking for expansive accommodations above what anyone else would receive. Then there's the issue of trans activists lying about the safety of hormone blocker use in children, which is NOT reversible nor is it safe. There is an established link between the use of those products and irreversible bone density loss. If you mention any of this, you get viciously attacked on a personal level.
  - 5y ago

undoware 5y ago

Not knowing where to begin, I'll simply say that I was political before I was a person, because your culture made me this way. There is no part of my personhood that is not political. Chapelle rounded out his bit by embracing trans exclusionism, thereby denying that trans women -- including the woman he had backstage to, as you so delicately put it, suck him off -- are doing anything other than lying about who they --- we --- really are. As though we all cared enough about you all to lie to you. Lying takes effort; you're not worth it. Which is why we transition in the first place. The only people denying humanity are Chapelle and his supporters.

deanCommie 5y ago
He specifically said in the show "Trans women are women" (or the double negative version which is "I am not saying that to say, that trans women aren’t women") He also used the term "man with a vagina" during a genuine heartfelt admonition of the cruelty of bathroom bills. (Which would also be correctly gendering transmen) So yes, he did end the show with a deliberate misgendering of his trans friend for a joke. And that to me is problematic for sure. But on balance this fits with the rest of his style of humor - he calls women bitches in the show too. Does that mean he is sexist? Or is it an artistic choice. I know people that despise him just for that even before we get to any of his positions on trans people. But i think fundamentally, on balance, he is pro trans rights, and he recognizes trans people's brain gender. Should he have said "I'm team TERF?" fuck no. Should he have said that he supports JKR? No. Now all the people who do NOT agree with all of the above points are leaping to support him - and they haven't seen the show any more than his critics. But i do think he had some valid points. JKR was wrong. Unquestionably. But the reaction she got was much more extreme than the points she made. People treat her as if she was calling for the genocide of trans people.

0x5f3759df-i 5y ago

I watched it as well. All nuance on the topic has been obliterated by the topic being absorbed into the larger culture war, but above anything it just wasn't funny. On net, the people calling Chapelle out are more correct than his defenders. He really did spend an hour making unfunny jokes at trans people's expense. Was the whole thing as bad as many who didn't watch it are assuming based on a few cherry picked quotes? No, but it was still pretty bad. Should Netflix remove it? I wouldn't say so, but I think much of the criticism is well deserved if lacking nuance.

david38 5y ago
What’s unfunny to you is funny to someone else. Almost all jokes are at someone’s expense. Nothing illegal was said, so if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple. I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do.
- stemlord 5y ago
  >if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple. No, it's not that simple. I hate this term but Chapelle is by all means a THOUGHT LEADER, meaning he has a megaphone into the minds of huge swaths of the population esp with a platform like Netflix. Everyone must fight for the world they want to live in. >I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do Get over yourself. YOU are the one who's tired?
- 0x5f3759df-i 5y ago
  The only one telling people what to do here is you

CodeGlitch 5y ago

I've not seen the show, but I bet if it wasn't such a money-maker for Netflix it would have been taken down without a second thought - as in it wouldn't be worth Netflix's time to try and defend themselves from the trans-activists. See also J.K Rowling and her book publisher.

Graffur 5y ago

Glad I watched it before this spoiler..