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Living in the occupied territories is brutal. I wouldn't say it's exactly the same as apartheid, but it's pretty close. There is a general lack of awareness of

by sndman 5y ago

Living in the occupied territories is brutal. I wouldn't say it's exactly the same as apartheid, but it's pretty close. There is a general lack of awareness of the history of Palestine and the indigenous people that lived there (and still live there)here in the US. I generally blame our media (news and entertainment) for this. The average American (in the US) is not aware that over 750,000 were forced to leave their land in 1948. My parents were among them. Call it what you will but this is universally recognized as ethnic cleansing and dispossession of land and homes. It's simply settler colonialism (the settlements continue every year). This was well documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine) among others. Most people simply hear news about violence, rockets, suicide bombers, etc. and do not understand the context. It's as if the Palestinians did not exist and the ethnic cleansing did not occur. As more and more tech workers became aware of the history and context of the Palestine/Israel "problem", they will hopefully consider the moral and ethical implications of their work and make their voices heard.

montblanc 5y ago
The U.N decided in 1947 to divide Palestine to two nations: one for Jews and one for Palestinians. The Palestinian and the entire Arab world did not accept this and went to war against the Jewish state. Though their rhetoric was very aggressive, arguably genocidal, they weren't successful at all despite Arabs outnumbering Jews by about 50 to 1. They lost, and indeed 750K Palestinians became refugees, which was avoidable and is indeed tragic. Note that the Palestinian "refugees" of today are being held hostage by Arab countries like Lebanon, Syria etc and not given citizenship. Despite being born there, their parents being born there etc. Still refugees. On purpose, so the refugee problem never goes away. This is truly shameful but for some reason only Israel gets the blame. . Now the story continues: The Palestinians want to reverse what happened 73 years ago and allow the Palestinian "refugees" (we are mostly talking about children and grandchildren of the original refugees) to "return". To do what - live in one big democratic state with the Jews? Not very likely. And even if that was their true wish, which is doubtful, I don't see why we need to create one disfunctional state to bring "justice" to people who are mostly now dead. This dream, this right, this fantasy (we each have our own interpretation of that) is what keeps the conflict going. If the Palestinian forfeited this wish there would be peace. But I really don't think they can, their identity is now too much involved with returning. Now you could say the same about Zionists: if they just give up and return to their homes in Arab lands or Europe etc, or accepted life under a Muslim Palestinian rule, there would be no more problem. The one difference is that Palestinian Muslims have maybe 30 Arab states where they share the same religion and culture. Jews literally have nowhere to go. The only country where they feel mostly safe (and even that's now deteriorating) is the United States, which doesn't seem to keen to absorb millions of refugees.
- sndman 5y ago
  There are many Palestinians who are not under occupation, but none of them, and this includes those in the refugee camps, are free from the potential danger of future ethnic cleansing. It seems more a matter of Israeli priority rather than a hierarchy of 'fortunate' and 'less fortunate' Palestinians. Those today in the Greater Jerusalem area are undergoing ethnic cleansing as we speak. Those who live in the vicinity of the apartheid wall Israel is constructing, half completed, are likely to be next. Those who live under the greatest illusion of safety, the Palestinians of Israel, may also be targeted in the future. Sixty-eight per cent of the Israeli Jews expressed their wish, in a recent poll, to see them transferred'. Neither Palestinians nor Jews will be saved, from one another or from themselves, if the ideology that still drives the Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is not correctly identified. The problem with Israel was never its Jewishness. Judaism has many faces and many of them provide a solid basis for peace and cohabitation; it is its ethnic Zionist character. Zionism does not have the same margins of pluralism that Judaism offers, especially not for the Palestinians. They can never be part of the Zionist state and space, and will continue to fight - and hopefully their struggle will be peaceful and successful. The ethnic cleansing started before May 1948 and continued into the next year. My parents were forced to leave Haifa in early 1948, with my oldest sister (one year old at the time). When I talk about this with friends, they mostly shrug and say, it's complicated. In reality, it's not complicated at all. It is the simple but horrific story of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, a crime against humanity that Israel has wanted to deny and cause the world to forget. Retrieving it from oblivion is incumbent upon us, not just as a greatly overdue act of historiographical reconstruction; it is a moral decision, the very first step we must take if we ever want reconciliation to have a chance, and peace to take root, in the torn lands of Palestine and Israel.

by sndman 5y ago

montblanc 5y ago

The U.N decided in 1947 to divide Palestine to two nations: one for Jews and one for Palestinians. The Palestinian and the entire Arab world did not accept this and went to war against the Jewish state. Though their rhetoric was very aggressive, arguably genocidal, they weren't successful at all despite Arabs outnumbering Jews by about 50 to 1. They lost, and indeed 750K Palestinians became refugees, which was avoidable and is indeed tragic. Note that the Palestinian "refugees" of today are being held hostage by Arab countries like Lebanon, Syria etc and not given citizenship. Despite being born there, their parents being born there etc. Still refugees. On purpose, so the refugee problem never goes away. This is truly shameful but for some reason only Israel gets the blame. . Now the story continues: The Palestinians want to reverse what happened 73 years ago and allow the Palestinian "refugees" (we are mostly talking about children and grandchildren of the original refugees) to "return". To do what - live in one big democratic state with the Jews? Not very likely. And even if that was their true wish, which is doubtful, I don't see why we need to create one disfunctional state to bring "justice" to people who are mostly now dead. This dream, this right, this fantasy (we each have our own interpretation of that) is what keeps the conflict going. If the Palestinian forfeited this wish there would be peace. But I really don't think they can, their identity is now too much involved with returning. Now you could say the same about Zionists: if they just give up and return to their homes in Arab lands or Europe etc, or accepted life under a Muslim Palestinian rule, there would be no more problem. The one difference is that Palestinian Muslims have maybe 30 Arab states where they share the same religion and culture. Jews literally have nowhere to go. The only country where they feel mostly safe (and even that's now deteriorating) is the United States, which doesn't seem to keen to absorb millions of refugees.

sndman 5y ago
There are many Palestinians who are not under occupation, but none of them, and this includes those in the refugee camps, are free from the potential danger of future ethnic cleansing. It seems more a matter of Israeli priority rather than a hierarchy of 'fortunate' and 'less fortunate' Palestinians. Those today in the Greater Jerusalem area are undergoing ethnic cleansing as we speak. Those who live in the vicinity of the apartheid wall Israel is constructing, half completed, are likely to be next. Those who live under the greatest illusion of safety, the Palestinians of Israel, may also be targeted in the future. Sixty-eight per cent of the Israeli Jews expressed their wish, in a recent poll, to see them transferred'. Neither Palestinians nor Jews will be saved, from one another or from themselves, if the ideology that still drives the Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is not correctly identified. The problem with Israel was never its Jewishness. Judaism has many faces and many of them provide a solid basis for peace and cohabitation; it is its ethnic Zionist character. Zionism does not have the same margins of pluralism that Judaism offers, especially not for the Palestinians. They can never be part of the Zionist state and space, and will continue to fight - and hopefully their struggle will be peaceful and successful. The ethnic cleansing started before May 1948 and continued into the next year. My parents were forced to leave Haifa in early 1948, with my oldest sister (one year old at the time). When I talk about this with friends, they mostly shrug and say, it's complicated. In reality, it's not complicated at all. It is the simple but horrific story of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, a crime against humanity that Israel has wanted to deny and cause the world to forget. Retrieving it from oblivion is incumbent upon us, not just as a greatly overdue act of historiographical reconstruction; it is a moral decision, the very first step we must take if we ever want reconciliation to have a chance, and peace to take root, in the torn lands of Palestine and Israel.