3 ms·

> she was ordered to go work on a computing effort, it wasn't her choice To be clear, Dr. Grace Hopper is not the only woman who worked on computers. This was

> she was ordered to go work on a computing effort, it wasn't her choice To be clear, Dr. Grace Hopper is not the only woman who worked on computers. This was a general field post-WW2 that women were encouraged to go into because they were seen as natural fits, even as men started to come home from the war. It was only after computing started to become more "respectable" that it started to shift into a more male-dominated industry. There may well be natural differences between sexes in preferences (either biological or social), but if your arguments about how those differences are "obvious" aren't actually predictive, and if historically those exact same arguments have been used almost verbatim to explain trends that skewed in the exact opposite direction -- then at that point I think you're talking about a pseudoscience. You want to research sex difference? Well, part of examining a hypothesis is looking at whether it actually holds true and is useful as a predictive tool. If you balk at the idea of questioning whether the trends you're trying to explain are actually universal or whether they're cultural, then that you're not really doing science.

Jensson 5y ago
Women didn't leave the field of computer science, men just joined it in droves when they realized that you can build tons of cool shit with computers and it isn't just a big calculator. Men joining the field shifted the gender balance, but they didn't drive out any women when they did it.
- danShumway 5y ago
  That's an interesting theory, but absent some kind of evidence it still seems like post hoc rationalization to me. > and it isn't just a big calculator I'm not sure you've thought this argument through. Are you suggesting that women are naturally better-suited to mathematics and theoretical engineering then men are? You think that the male shift in CS was because the field became less theoretical, and men realized that the field wasn't only offering analytic/abstract challenges? I'd love if in these types of debates we could all standardize on what the inherent biological differences are that we're talking about, but it always seems to me like proponents have a hard time doing that. The theories fluidly evolve, flip around, and transform to meet every example and statistic, their only constant being the belief that cultural solutions to how fields are presented, taught, and managed should be off the table. Hence the pseudoscience concerns I have above. ---- The point I brought up in my original comment was that all of these arguments: - that women don't like analytic/abstract thinking - that women don't like practical/applied thinking jobs - that women prefer fuzzy-creative tasks instead of hard-creative tasks - that women care about people more than concepts - that women prefer social jobs and men prefer isolated work - that women naturally avoid careers with high amounts of conflict like upper management positions they're all brought up by their proponents as if they're obvious conclusions, despite the fact that they're often mutually exclusive claims, and despite the fact that even when they do contradict each other they still all use the exact same evidence and justifications as "proof" for their obvious-ness. Most of these theories aren't the result of real scientific research, they're rationalizations for current outcomes that start from a position that the outcomes necessarily must have a biological explanation. It's hard for me to have a lot of respect for that. And these people want to claim that the people who are actually testing social theories about gender gaps are the unscientific ones. Their definition of the "scientific" way to approach gender is to just assume everything is biological and to never question the status quo.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > I'm not sure you've thought this argument through. > Are you suggesting that women are naturally better-suited to mathematics and theoretical engineering then men are? I have thought it through, but thanks for your concern. Mathematics is close to gender parity, engineering is not. When computer science shifted from being closer to math to being closer to engineering you saw the population attending shift to match engineering rather than math ratios. It is that simple, and it matches observed data perfectly with how CS curve went upwards matching the curve for math but in the late 80's it took a quick nose dive and followed the curve for engineering ever since. I am not sure why you bring up suitability to study a field though, nowhere did I say that men are better at anything than women and vice versa. People study what they find interesting, not necessarily what they are good at. But you are right, we know that women are more willing to study the purer more theoretical classes over the engineering versions. I don't see how that would contradict anything.
    - danShumway 5y ago
      > Mathematics is close to gender parity Where are you getting this data from? Mathematics has a pretty noticeable gender gap, it's not at all close to parity. Besides, if your theory is correct, we shouldn't see parity. We should see women dominate the field, the same way that they dominated early computing. Even in a world with an actual 50/50 split in mathematics (which again, is not the current world), your theory still doesn't explain why women were over-represented in early computing, even after WW2 when men had returned home. ---- Let's make some other predictions based on your theory while we're at it. If what you're saying is correct and women are primed to find theoretical fields more interesting than men do, we might expect to see a higher proportion of women in research positions for hospitals than in practical positions like nursing, and similarly we might expect to see a higher proportion of men in practical medical fields like nursing and direct care. Do we see that? No. If your theory is correct and women are inherently more interested in theoretical fields, we should expect to see a gender inbalance in teaching fields based on education levels and practicality of subject. So for example, we should expect to see more men teaching lower-level mathematics and intro programming where their work has a direct impact on people's day-to-day life, and more women teaching higher-level mathematics and abstract programming courses in higher education settings. Do we see that? No. You've globbed onto an explanation based on one statistic because it might explain that statistic. You haven't formed a widely applicable explanation that can be used across the board to explain the different statistics that we see throughout multiple fields, or that can be used to predict what statistics we will see in the future.
snek_case 5y ago
There's actually quite a bit of science on toy preference in infants[1], but the existence of such evidence is routinely denied. The problem is that this has become a political topic. I'm happy for all the women who choose to go into STEM, who enjoy doing that work, and who succeed. I still think that it's problematic to explain away the huge gender imbalances in STEM fields based on the idea that it's all because of oppression or social norms. Consider the medical field. Those used to be very much male-dominated, but nowadays, there are more women graduating out of med school than men, and AFAIK, under a certain age, most young doctors are female. Women are also going into law at a higher rate than they are in CS. Law has a reputation for being macho and toxic as hell, but that's not stopping women from entering the field. Why do we blame the gender imbalance in CS purely on oppression, discrimination or social norms? As far as there being more women in STEM during WWII than there are now, and that disproving the idea that there could be natural differences in preferences (again, on average, this is not absolute), and that somehow disproving the idea of sex differences in preferences... Many young men were sent to war during WWII and women were given extra incentives to enter the field. It wasn't exactly a situation where people were just choosing things based on their own free will. After WWII, you had a situation where a few million young men had died, and the women who were now working in those fields kept doing so. [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01624-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01624-7
- danShumway 5y ago
  Two issues. First with the theory itself: > Consider the medical field. Those used to be very much male-dominated, but nowadays, there are more women graduating out of med school than men, and AFAIK, under a certain age, most young doctors are female. Women are also going into law at a higher rate than they are in CS. To look at multiple fields that used the exact same statistics and arguments to justify their gender gaps, and that have since been proven wrong, and to argue that CS/STEM is the one field where that's never going to happen -- is just a wild leap in logic to me. There is, of course, some decent research on infant preferences. How that relates to abstract code is an exercise left to the reader. But it should give you some pause that after the doctors pointed at infant preferences and said, "that's why there aren't women doctors", and after the lawyers pointed at infant preferences and said, "that's why women don't want to be in high-stress environments", and after both of those fields were proven wrong, you're now using practically the same arguments verbatim and claiming that this time the link is real and not just projection. ---- Secondly though, I want to talk about the overall context of the conversation we're having. The idea that sex differences contribute (both socially and biologically) to different experiences and development is not what this debate is about. The criticism of of biological explanations for gender gaps is not a denial of biology, it is an assertion that biology on its own is not sufficient to explain current gaps. So I want to push back on the inevitable claim that always comes up in these threads that this is a fight over whether biology is real or whether sex can possibly have an impact on preferences. If that's what the claim was, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation; biological differences between sexes is a completely uncontroversial idea even in the majority of feminist circles. Equality activists are not against looking at biology as part of their research into gender gaps. What proponents of biological want in practice is not acknowledgement that biological differences exist, but a denial that other social differences exist. Look over this thread; what are the actual arguments that are being made? > Just as men are less likely to be nurses/grade school teachers, they don't play to each sex's strengths. And that's ok > Politics are preventing us, as a species, from properly understanding ourselves. > There is everything about nursing that is gender specific. Men are interested in things, women are interested in people > Unfortunately HR departments just look at the employment statistics and decide that the numbers need to be 50/50, for some reason The overwhelming sentiment I see every time I get into one of these conversations isn't "biological differences exist", it's "gender gaps are fine because biology exists, and we shouldn't look into the social aspects because biology is a good enough explanation." Maybe you're not in that camp. If not, then I apologize, I don't mean to just lump you in with other commenters. But I think it's short-sighted to look at fields that by your own admittance have seen large demographic shifts because of social changes, and to argue that the people suggesting that Computer Science might have similar problems are being unreasonable or denying that sex exists. If anything the situation is the opposite; we know, very observably, that culture shapes interest during early development. If we can have a conversation about equity while acknowledging that sex exists and has physical effects on people, we also should be able to acknowledge that culture exists without people immediately bristling and complaining about "politics".

Jensson 5y ago

Women didn't leave the field of computer science, men just joined it in droves when they realized that you can build tons of cool shit with computers and it isn't just a big calculator. Men joining the field shifted the gender balance, but they didn't drive out any women when they did it.

danShumway 5y ago
That's an interesting theory, but absent some kind of evidence it still seems like post hoc rationalization to me. > and it isn't just a big calculator I'm not sure you've thought this argument through. Are you suggesting that women are naturally better-suited to mathematics and theoretical engineering then men are? You think that the male shift in CS was because the field became less theoretical, and men realized that the field wasn't only offering analytic/abstract challenges? I'd love if in these types of debates we could all standardize on what the inherent biological differences are that we're talking about, but it always seems to me like proponents have a hard time doing that. The theories fluidly evolve, flip around, and transform to meet every example and statistic, their only constant being the belief that cultural solutions to how fields are presented, taught, and managed should be off the table. Hence the pseudoscience concerns I have above. ---- The point I brought up in my original comment was that all of these arguments: - that women don't like analytic/abstract thinking - that women don't like practical/applied thinking jobs - that women prefer fuzzy-creative tasks instead of hard-creative tasks - that women care about people more than concepts - that women prefer social jobs and men prefer isolated work - that women naturally avoid careers with high amounts of conflict like upper management positions they're all brought up by their proponents as if they're obvious conclusions, despite the fact that they're often mutually exclusive claims, and despite the fact that even when they do contradict each other they still all use the exact same evidence and justifications as "proof" for their obvious-ness. Most of these theories aren't the result of real scientific research, they're rationalizations for current outcomes that start from a position that the outcomes necessarily must have a biological explanation. It's hard for me to have a lot of respect for that. And these people want to claim that the people who are actually testing social theories about gender gaps are the unscientific ones. Their definition of the "scientific" way to approach gender is to just assume everything is biological and to never question the status quo.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > I'm not sure you've thought this argument through. > Are you suggesting that women are naturally better-suited to mathematics and theoretical engineering then men are? I have thought it through, but thanks for your concern. Mathematics is close to gender parity, engineering is not. When computer science shifted from being closer to math to being closer to engineering you saw the population attending shift to match engineering rather than math ratios. It is that simple, and it matches observed data perfectly with how CS curve went upwards matching the curve for math but in the late 80's it took a quick nose dive and followed the curve for engineering ever since. I am not sure why you bring up suitability to study a field though, nowhere did I say that men are better at anything than women and vice versa. People study what they find interesting, not necessarily what they are good at. But you are right, we know that women are more willing to study the purer more theoretical classes over the engineering versions. I don't see how that would contradict anything.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    > Mathematics is close to gender parity Where are you getting this data from? Mathematics has a pretty noticeable gender gap, it's not at all close to parity. Besides, if your theory is correct, we shouldn't see parity. We should see women dominate the field, the same way that they dominated early computing. Even in a world with an actual 50/50 split in mathematics (which again, is not the current world), your theory still doesn't explain why women were over-represented in early computing, even after WW2 when men had returned home. ---- Let's make some other predictions based on your theory while we're at it. If what you're saying is correct and women are primed to find theoretical fields more interesting than men do, we might expect to see a higher proportion of women in research positions for hospitals than in practical positions like nursing, and similarly we might expect to see a higher proportion of men in practical medical fields like nursing and direct care. Do we see that? No. If your theory is correct and women are inherently more interested in theoretical fields, we should expect to see a gender inbalance in teaching fields based on education levels and practicality of subject. So for example, we should expect to see more men teaching lower-level mathematics and intro programming where their work has a direct impact on people's day-to-day life, and more women teaching higher-level mathematics and abstract programming courses in higher education settings. Do we see that? No. You've globbed onto an explanation based on one statistic because it might explain that statistic. You haven't formed a widely applicable explanation that can be used across the board to explain the different statistics that we see throughout multiple fields, or that can be used to predict what statistics we will see in the future.

snek_case 5y ago

There's actually quite a bit of science on toy preference in infants[1], but the existence of such evidence is routinely denied. The problem is that this has become a political topic. I'm happy for all the women who choose to go into STEM, who enjoy doing that work, and who succeed. I still think that it's problematic to explain away the huge gender imbalances in STEM fields based on the idea that it's all because of oppression or social norms. Consider the medical field. Those used to be very much male-dominated, but nowadays, there are more women graduating out of med school than men, and AFAIK, under a certain age, most young doctors are female. Women are also going into law at a higher rate than they are in CS. Law has a reputation for being macho and toxic as hell, but that's not stopping women from entering the field. Why do we blame the gender imbalance in CS purely on oppression, discrimination or social norms? As far as there being more women in STEM during WWII than there are now, and that disproving the idea that there could be natural differences in preferences (again, on average, this is not absolute), and that somehow disproving the idea of sex differences in preferences... Many young men were sent to war during WWII and women were given extra incentives to enter the field. It wasn't exactly a situation where people were just choosing things based on their own free will. After WWII, you had a situation where a few million young men had died, and the women who were now working in those fields kept doing so. [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01624-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01624-7

danShumway 5y ago
Two issues. First with the theory itself: > Consider the medical field. Those used to be very much male-dominated, but nowadays, there are more women graduating out of med school than men, and AFAIK, under a certain age, most young doctors are female. Women are also going into law at a higher rate than they are in CS. To look at multiple fields that used the exact same statistics and arguments to justify their gender gaps, and that have since been proven wrong, and to argue that CS/STEM is the one field where that's never going to happen -- is just a wild leap in logic to me. There is, of course, some decent research on infant preferences. How that relates to abstract code is an exercise left to the reader. But it should give you some pause that after the doctors pointed at infant preferences and said, "that's why there aren't women doctors", and after the lawyers pointed at infant preferences and said, "that's why women don't want to be in high-stress environments", and after both of those fields were proven wrong, you're now using practically the same arguments verbatim and claiming that this time the link is real and not just projection. ---- Secondly though, I want to talk about the overall context of the conversation we're having. The idea that sex differences contribute (both socially and biologically) to different experiences and development is not what this debate is about. The criticism of of biological explanations for gender gaps is not a denial of biology, it is an assertion that biology on its own is not sufficient to explain current gaps. So I want to push back on the inevitable claim that always comes up in these threads that this is a fight over whether biology is real or whether sex can possibly have an impact on preferences. If that's what the claim was, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation; biological differences between sexes is a completely uncontroversial idea even in the majority of feminist circles. Equality activists are not against looking at biology as part of their research into gender gaps. What proponents of biological want in practice is not acknowledgement that biological differences exist, but a denial that other social differences exist. Look over this thread; what are the actual arguments that are being made? > Just as men are less likely to be nurses/grade school teachers, they don't play to each sex's strengths. And that's ok > Politics are preventing us, as a species, from properly understanding ourselves. > There is everything about nursing that is gender specific. Men are interested in things, women are interested in people > Unfortunately HR departments just look at the employment statistics and decide that the numbers need to be 50/50, for some reason The overwhelming sentiment I see every time I get into one of these conversations isn't "biological differences exist", it's "gender gaps are fine because biology exists, and we shouldn't look into the social aspects because biology is a good enough explanation." Maybe you're not in that camp. If not, then I apologize, I don't mean to just lump you in with other commenters. But I think it's short-sighted to look at fields that by your own admittance have seen large demographic shifts because of social changes, and to argue that the people suggesting that Computer Science might have similar problems are being unreasonable or denying that sex exists. If anything the situation is the opposite; we know, very observably, that culture shapes interest during early development. If we can have a conversation about equity while acknowledging that sex exists and has physical effects on people, we also should be able to acknowledge that culture exists without people immediately bristling and complaining about "politics".