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There was a recent article "A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’" in the Wall Street Journal. Everyone pretends to be completely

There was a recent article "A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’" in the Wall Street Journal. Everyone pretends to be completely puzzled by this. And yet not long ago: "In fact, more women as a whole now graduate from college than men ... This is a great accomplishment—not just for one sport or one college or even just for women but for America. And this is what Title IX is all about." President Barack Obama. It goes back to kindergarten. We have known for over a decade that this occurs. And yet we get these fake baffled faces. Education is currently actively hostile towards boys and young men. Just imagine how fraught trying to date would be if you were a young man in a university now and had heterosexual leanings. And yet that wage gap "factoid" continues to be chanted at every turn.

TheCoreh 5y ago
> Just imagine how fraught trying to date would be if you were a young man in a university now and had heterosexual leanings. Not sure what you mean: - What does the difficulty of dating have to do with the education system? - My understanding is that the abundance of dating apps should have made dating significantly easier nowadays than in the past. Is that not the case? - Why is sexuality relevant for this point? The article is primarily focused on gender
- collegeburner 5y ago
  No, dating apps are mostly for hookups and that kind of thing. Ive heard a few sucecss stories but almost no long term relationships from them. I think thats more when people get older and not so many are looking for hookups any more that dating apps are more helpful. Though tbh I probably wouldnt want to date someone 5-7 years from now who used to have a lot of hookups, same with a lot of guys I know, so it will be interesting to see what those people do in the future.
  - mattzito 5y ago
    Isn't it possible that women are less interested in long-term relationships in college than they used to be? My parents generation, many women went to college to get their "mrs" - my generation, people dated casually, but most didn't expect to marry someone they dated in college, because they didn't plan to get married for years and years (until they had a career, were established, etc.). Stands to reason if that trend continues, there's even less value in long-term relationships. in college (and my limited anecdata supports that).
    - collegeburner 5y ago
      Oh not just it's possible, it is absolutely the case. There are still some who intend to settle down earlier but for probably the majority now it's the case. The interesting problem will be that maybe not as many guys will want to marry a 35-year-old.
      - mattzito 5y ago
        > maybe not as many guys will want to marry a 35-year-old. Maybe! Though if the 25-year-old women don't want to get married, and the 30-year-old women are just starting to think about it, the primary options for guys will be the 35-year-olds.
        BlargMcLarg 5y ago
        Option C: men don't want to marry the older women, women don't want to marry until they are older, so they don't get married. Who loses out most in this situation has yet to be decided, though some anecdotes and (admittedly weak) sources suggest this isn't a net benefit to either sex.
  - ssully 5y ago
    I went to 3 weddings this year, and each couple being married met on dating apps. If anything my single friends biggest complaint is that apps are the defacto way of dating, even before the pandemic. Your options were basically apps, mutual introduction, or bars. Even bars I would say were slowing down, at least amongst my age group, because everyone was so busy with work, or just general life stuff. Also you are dating yourself with that last sentence.
    - collegeburner 5y ago
      Yeah that's what I mean, dating apps are more a thing when most people start looking to settle down. > Also you are dating yourself with that last sentence. Nice pun but no, I am typical college age. I dont see how it's "dating myself" to not want to marry somebody in 7-10 years who hooks up a lot now.
      - mattzito 5y ago
        What would you define as "a lot"?
        collegeburner 5y ago
        Greater than 1 time? I get if somebody gets drunk and makes a call they regret later but wouldnt want somebody who hooked up a lot as a pattern of behavior. For me, and for the people I know who want long term relationships (guys and girls), none of us want somebody who sleep around a lot ages 18 to 35 then decide to settle down and get married. Seems guys are more averse to this though, tbh I dont much like the idea of marrying somebody after her most attractive years are past, and waiting 35 years of my life for a stable relationship before then. Out of curiosity what would you define as "a lot"?
        mattzito 5y ago
        > greater than 1 time Most people have ~5-8 sexual partners, so that’s not that likely. As far as what I think is a lot, if I’m seeing someone who slept around a lot, if they did it because they enjoy sex and were having healthy sexual relationships, I really don’t care about the number. If anything, the women who have more experience are more open and confident. I guess the last time I thought “man maybe that’s getting to be a high number”, a friend of mine crossed the 50-partner mark. Sooo, I suppose that’s the general zone of “a lot”. But I don’t ascribe any moral or character issues to that number.
collegeburner 5y ago
I dont have to imagine, I am. Its definitely kinda iffy compared to what Ive heard it used to be, though not impossible, but its risky to politely ask out a girl you dont know well these days. Its made worse by the fact that a lot of guys are in some majors and a lot of girls are in others, zoom means we dont meet each other so much these days.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  I’m unclear what the risk is in asking someone out for coffee, lunch, concert, or whatever. Just be polite and accept a no of given. What am I missing?
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    It's a chilling effect. Most of the time it's fine and no problem, I haven't had many issues. But it seems like everybody has a friend of a friend who had a problem and that is often enough to dissuade, even if some cases are untrue or exaggerated, that doesn't matter because thats how chilling effect works. Low likelihood but very high impact.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - mkr-hn 5y ago
      This might be a relative of pluralistic ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance Everyone knows it's overkill, but nobody wants to be the exception that proves the rule.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      When no one has direct experience of a thing, but everyone has heard vague second-hand stories about a thing, that's a good indication the thing is a rumor, or a rare situation that somehow got blown out of proportion and misrepresented as a common case.
  - 5y ago
mattzito 5y ago
It's funny how I was starting to nod my head at your comment, because yes, I agree that there's some obvious reasons why american men are less interested in college, and fine, maybe "actively hostile" is a little much but I directionally agree, and then there's: > Just imagine how fraught trying to date would be if you were a young man in a university now and had heterosexual leanings. What? THAT's why the educational system is actively hostile towards boys and young men? Because non-consensual sex is less acceptable than it was 20 years ago? I know young men in college, and things are fine. People drink a little less, talk a little more, are more careful about sex. Everyone still dates, and has sex, and has a good time. And I've seen what happens to rape victims, and it is awful. No one should have to experience that. If the tradeoff is people communicating more and drinking less in exchange for fewer campus rapes, I'm all for it.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  So, I was in college when a false rape accusation occurred. How did I know it was false? I was in the room with the supposed rapist when he was supposed to be raping someone. If you didn't "believe," actual fistfights occurred. The accuser would later change her story, and managed to fabricate other things as time went on, including frankly supernatural events. A pointing finger is all that is required these days. And perhaps you should do a bit more reading on some current travesties of justice that have occurred on campuses as of late.
  - mattzito 5y ago
    Yeah, so, I’m sorry to hear about this innocent person who was wrongly accused. Let me share a few anecdotes of my own: - a college roommate’s girlfriend who was sleeping over at our dorm awoke in the morning to find another roommate standing over her and masturbating while looking at her. The schools response? “What were you wearing?” and “don’t worry, we will make sure he can’t end up in your boyfriend’s dorm room next year” - another friend was raped at a party, and then was accused of claiming rape because the rapist was the boyfriend of another girl, so clearly she didn’t want to get in trouble for sleeping with someone’s boyfriend. - someone I knew in college got drunk and raped his passed-out girlfriend because he was angry she didn’t want to sleep with him that night. The next day he confessed to myself and a few other people, his girlfriend complained to the school, his parents got a lawyer involved, and that was the end of it. Our description of what he told us was dismissed as our attempt to help the girlfriend by lying. The school year was about to end and they just didn’t want to deal with it. Easier to just sort of let things sort themselves out at the end. Also, btw, the worst part about this last story was that the rapist, when he first came to us was horrified and ashamed of what he had done, and told us in order to ask what he should do. Then, once the girl reported him, he got defensive and started backtracking - “it wasn’t really that bad”, and “she likes stuff like that”, and “it’s just one screwup, why should it ruin my life”. The only redeeming part of this story is that I ran into him many years later and he had gotten sober, done years of therapy, and tried to make amends for his actions. The common things in all three of those stories is that 1) I know them to be true, and 2) someone innocent was harmed in each case. So yes, it sucks when someone is falsely accused of something, and I do think that the way colleges handle complaints could be improved to be more fair to both parties. But let’s not pretend that for every false accusation there aren’t many many actual sexual assaults with innocent victims.
weakfish 5y ago
As a young man in college, you are completely wrong. You're right, you can't imagine - you can't imagine that it's actually better now for all genders. And yet, there's still a significant amount of bad behavior that goes unpunished despite the claims of many - my partner and friends who are women get harassed all the time and nobody will do anything about it. But sure, men are soooo oppressed on campus...
8note 5y ago
why are you considering the main purpose of education to be dating?

TheCoreh 5y ago

> Just imagine how fraught trying to date would be if you were a young man in a university now and had heterosexual leanings. Not sure what you mean: - What does the difficulty of dating have to do with the education system? - My understanding is that the abundance of dating apps should have made dating significantly easier nowadays than in the past. Is that not the case? - Why is sexuality relevant for this point? The article is primarily focused on gender

collegeburner 5y ago
No, dating apps are mostly for hookups and that kind of thing. Ive heard a few sucecss stories but almost no long term relationships from them. I think thats more when people get older and not so many are looking for hookups any more that dating apps are more helpful. Though tbh I probably wouldnt want to date someone 5-7 years from now who used to have a lot of hookups, same with a lot of guys I know, so it will be interesting to see what those people do in the future.
- mattzito 5y ago
  Isn't it possible that women are less interested in long-term relationships in college than they used to be? My parents generation, many women went to college to get their "mrs" - my generation, people dated casually, but most didn't expect to marry someone they dated in college, because they didn't plan to get married for years and years (until they had a career, were established, etc.). Stands to reason if that trend continues, there's even less value in long-term relationships. in college (and my limited anecdata supports that).
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    Oh not just it's possible, it is absolutely the case. There are still some who intend to settle down earlier but for probably the majority now it's the case. The interesting problem will be that maybe not as many guys will want to marry a 35-year-old.
    - mattzito 5y ago
      > maybe not as many guys will want to marry a 35-year-old. Maybe! Though if the 25-year-old women don't want to get married, and the 30-year-old women are just starting to think about it, the primary options for guys will be the 35-year-olds.
      - BlargMcLarg 5y ago
        Option C: men don't want to marry the older women, women don't want to marry until they are older, so they don't get married. Who loses out most in this situation has yet to be decided, though some anecdotes and (admittedly weak) sources suggest this isn't a net benefit to either sex.
- ssully 5y ago
  I went to 3 weddings this year, and each couple being married met on dating apps. If anything my single friends biggest complaint is that apps are the defacto way of dating, even before the pandemic. Your options were basically apps, mutual introduction, or bars. Even bars I would say were slowing down, at least amongst my age group, because everyone was so busy with work, or just general life stuff. Also you are dating yourself with that last sentence.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    Yeah that's what I mean, dating apps are more a thing when most people start looking to settle down. > Also you are dating yourself with that last sentence. Nice pun but no, I am typical college age. I dont see how it's "dating myself" to not want to marry somebody in 7-10 years who hooks up a lot now.
    - mattzito 5y ago
      What would you define as "a lot"?
      - collegeburner 5y ago
        Greater than 1 time? I get if somebody gets drunk and makes a call they regret later but wouldnt want somebody who hooked up a lot as a pattern of behavior. For me, and for the people I know who want long term relationships (guys and girls), none of us want somebody who sleep around a lot ages 18 to 35 then decide to settle down and get married. Seems guys are more averse to this though, tbh I dont much like the idea of marrying somebody after her most attractive years are past, and waiting 35 years of my life for a stable relationship before then. Out of curiosity what would you define as "a lot"?
        mattzito 5y ago
        > greater than 1 time Most people have ~5-8 sexual partners, so that’s not that likely. As far as what I think is a lot, if I’m seeing someone who slept around a lot, if they did it because they enjoy sex and were having healthy sexual relationships, I really don’t care about the number. If anything, the women who have more experience are more open and confident. I guess the last time I thought “man maybe that’s getting to be a high number”, a friend of mine crossed the 50-partner mark. Sooo, I suppose that’s the general zone of “a lot”. But I don’t ascribe any moral or character issues to that number.

collegeburner 5y ago

I dont have to imagine, I am. Its definitely kinda iffy compared to what Ive heard it used to be, though not impossible, but its risky to politely ask out a girl you dont know well these days. Its made worse by the fact that a lot of guys are in some majors and a lot of girls are in others, zoom means we dont meet each other so much these days.

amanaplanacanal 5y ago
I’m unclear what the risk is in asking someone out for coffee, lunch, concert, or whatever. Just be polite and accept a no of given. What am I missing?
- collegeburner 5y ago
  It's a chilling effect. Most of the time it's fine and no problem, I haven't had many issues. But it seems like everybody has a friend of a friend who had a problem and that is often enough to dissuade, even if some cases are untrue or exaggerated, that doesn't matter because thats how chilling effect works. Low likelihood but very high impact.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mkr-hn 5y ago
    This might be a relative of pluralistic ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance Everyone knows it's overkill, but nobody wants to be the exception that proves the rule.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    When no one has direct experience of a thing, but everyone has heard vague second-hand stories about a thing, that's a good indication the thing is a rumor, or a rare situation that somehow got blown out of proportion and misrepresented as a common case.
- 5y ago

mattzito 5y ago

It's funny how I was starting to nod my head at your comment, because yes, I agree that there's some obvious reasons why american men are less interested in college, and fine, maybe "actively hostile" is a little much but I directionally agree, and then there's: > Just imagine how fraught trying to date would be if you were a young man in a university now and had heterosexual leanings. What? THAT's why the educational system is actively hostile towards boys and young men? Because non-consensual sex is less acceptable than it was 20 years ago? I know young men in college, and things are fine. People drink a little less, talk a little more, are more careful about sex. Everyone still dates, and has sex, and has a good time. And I've seen what happens to rape victims, and it is awful. No one should have to experience that. If the tradeoff is people communicating more and drinking less in exchange for fewer campus rapes, I'm all for it.

at_a_remove 5y ago
So, I was in college when a false rape accusation occurred. How did I know it was false? I was in the room with the supposed rapist when he was supposed to be raping someone. If you didn't "believe," actual fistfights occurred. The accuser would later change her story, and managed to fabricate other things as time went on, including frankly supernatural events. A pointing finger is all that is required these days. And perhaps you should do a bit more reading on some current travesties of justice that have occurred on campuses as of late.
- mattzito 5y ago
  Yeah, so, I’m sorry to hear about this innocent person who was wrongly accused. Let me share a few anecdotes of my own: - a college roommate’s girlfriend who was sleeping over at our dorm awoke in the morning to find another roommate standing over her and masturbating while looking at her. The schools response? “What were you wearing?” and “don’t worry, we will make sure he can’t end up in your boyfriend’s dorm room next year” - another friend was raped at a party, and then was accused of claiming rape because the rapist was the boyfriend of another girl, so clearly she didn’t want to get in trouble for sleeping with someone’s boyfriend. - someone I knew in college got drunk and raped his passed-out girlfriend because he was angry she didn’t want to sleep with him that night. The next day he confessed to myself and a few other people, his girlfriend complained to the school, his parents got a lawyer involved, and that was the end of it. Our description of what he told us was dismissed as our attempt to help the girlfriend by lying. The school year was about to end and they just didn’t want to deal with it. Easier to just sort of let things sort themselves out at the end. Also, btw, the worst part about this last story was that the rapist, when he first came to us was horrified and ashamed of what he had done, and told us in order to ask what he should do. Then, once the girl reported him, he got defensive and started backtracking - “it wasn’t really that bad”, and “she likes stuff like that”, and “it’s just one screwup, why should it ruin my life”. The only redeeming part of this story is that I ran into him many years later and he had gotten sober, done years of therapy, and tried to make amends for his actions. The common things in all three of those stories is that 1) I know them to be true, and 2) someone innocent was harmed in each case. So yes, it sucks when someone is falsely accused of something, and I do think that the way colleges handle complaints could be improved to be more fair to both parties. But let’s not pretend that for every false accusation there aren’t many many actual sexual assaults with innocent victims.

weakfish 5y ago

As a young man in college, you are completely wrong. You're right, you can't imagine - you can't imagine that it's actually better now for all genders. And yet, there's still a significant amount of bad behavior that goes unpunished despite the claims of many - my partner and friends who are women get harassed all the time and nobody will do anything about it. But sure, men are soooo oppressed on campus...

8note 5y ago

why are you considering the main purpose of education to be dating?