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Most of the issues you highlighted are done from an abundance of caution and cause no harm, like pushing masking outdoors. Meanwhile, the other side pushes an

Most of the issues you highlighted are done from an abundance of caution and cause no harm, like pushing masking outdoors. Meanwhile, the other side pushes an agenda that actively encourages more infections, hospitalizations, and deaths. The pushing of vaccinating children is misunderstood. Yes, children generally do very well with COVID. But the vaccine is effective at slowing the spread. When children are vaccinated, it doesn't just protect them, but protects all the adults they interact with. > pushed policies which forced infected elderly people back into nursing homes where they subsequently infected others [citation needed] as I haven't heard of this. > keeps on treating SARS2 as if it is possible to get rid of the disease by vaccinating the entire population while it has become clear that a) vaccinated people can still catch the disease and spread it to others and b) it will be around for a long time, just like influenza is still with us. The claim that "vaccinated people can still catch the disease and spread it to others" is misleading because it carries the implication that the vaccine does nothing. It's akin to claiming we don't need seat belts in cars because you can still die in a car crash. A literal interpretation of the sentence is technically correct, but it's still a fact that vaccines significantly reduce the likelihood of symptoms, hospitalization, and death, and also shorten the duration in which you are contagious. > it will be around for a long time, just like influenza is still with us. Nobody has claimed otherwise. The problem is that your last two arguments are somehow being used as reasons to not vaccinate, which I don't understand. It essentially boils down to "The vaccine isn't 100% effective, so why bother?". The goal is not to eliminate hospitalizations and death, but to significantly reduce them, which the vaccines do.

gfodor 5y ago
This post exemplifies everything that is wrong with today's discourse from those who consider themselves to be "reasonable." > But the vaccine is effective at slowing the spread. When children are vaccinated, it doesn't just protect them, but protects all the adults they interact with. The point is if the risk of the vaccine to kids (non zero, in evidence of heart inflammation) is higher than COVID (which is low), it is arguably a bad idea to give it to them, and it is definitely unethical to mandate it to parents. Pivoting it to questions of spread is deflecting. > The claim that "vaccinated people can still catch the disease and spread it to others" is misleading because it carries the implication Stop. "Carries the implication" is not reasoning, it is a rhetorical trick. The point being made was clear, and you took a part out of context to beat it up with a "implication." The point being made is anyone who is still acting like the vaccine can get us to herd immunity is foolish. This was part of the stated goals of the vaccine, memory holes aside. The point isn't to claim the vaccine is a bad idea to take, the point is to point out the foolishness of those who continue to think if we could just push it hard and fast enough, we could end the disease. These people still exist, or at least, given the increased authoritarianism, are acting that way. > It essentially boils down to "The vaccine isn't 100% effective, so why bother?" "Essentially boils down to" - more weasel words! The point being made is lots of people claim to be waving the flag of science and objectivity, and can't even do basic risk analysis or keep up with the evolving knowledge we have. You took a very good post and turned it into an army of strawmen to knock down, and also tried to tag the person involved as an anti-vaxxer. Horrible stuff, really.
hagbard_c 5y ago
> [citation needed] as I haven't heard of this. Are [1] you [2] sure [3] you [4] never [5] heard [6] about [7] this [8]? Even [9] CNN [10] published [11] on [12] this [13]... Vaccinating children to the supposed-but-unlikely benefit of adults and the potential detriment of those children is morally wrong, this is an absolute which is not open for debate as far as I'm concerned. We're not talking about vaccines which are known safe like those against Measles or Rubella, this is uncharted territory which would normally have taken years of study before this type of vaccine would even be offered to children, leave alone mandated. Do you have children? I do. They are vaccinated against many things, some of them on my request (e.g. the TB vaccine is not a standard where I live). I will not have them take these vaccines though, both because there is no need as well as for the above stated reason. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-york-state-quietly-deletes-controversial-cuomo-order-that-forced-nursing-homes-to-admit-coronavirus-patients/ar-BB14G9Yr https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-york-state-quietly-... [2] https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-ap-top-news-understanding-the-outbreak-new-york-andrew-cuomo-212ccd87924b6906053703a00514647f https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-ap-top-news-unders... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56091682 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56091682 [4] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/nys-cuomo-criticized-highest-nursing-home-death-toll-70596950 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/nys-cuomo-criticized... [5] https://www.wsj.com/articles/cuomo-advisers-altered-report-on-covid-19-nursing-home-deaths-11614910855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/cuomo-advisers-altered-report-o... [6] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/9000-covid-patients-were-sent-from-ny-hospitals-into-nursing-homes-records-show/2884682/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/9000-covid-patie... [7] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-andrew-cuomo-donald-trump-nursing-homes-a9535691.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronaviru... [8] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/five-governors-besides-cuomo-who-sent-covid-19-positive-patients-into-nursing-homes/ar-BB1e7bB2 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/five-governors-besides-cuo... [9] https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nursing-homes-fact-check/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nur... [10] https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nursing-homes-fact-check/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nursing... [11] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/nursing-homes-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/nursing-homes-coronavi... [12] https://khn.org/morning-breakout/gov-cuomos-order-to-house-covid-patients-in-nursing-homes-scrutinized/ https://khn.org/morning-breakout/gov-cuomos-order-to-house-c... [13] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-will-no-longer-require-nursing-homes-take-covid-n1204586 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-will-no-longer...

gfodor 5y ago

This post exemplifies everything that is wrong with today's discourse from those who consider themselves to be "reasonable." > But the vaccine is effective at slowing the spread. When children are vaccinated, it doesn't just protect them, but protects all the adults they interact with. The point is if the risk of the vaccine to kids (non zero, in evidence of heart inflammation) is higher than COVID (which is low), it is arguably a bad idea to give it to them, and it is definitely unethical to mandate it to parents. Pivoting it to questions of spread is deflecting. > The claim that "vaccinated people can still catch the disease and spread it to others" is misleading because it carries the implication Stop. "Carries the implication" is not reasoning, it is a rhetorical trick. The point being made was clear, and you took a part out of context to beat it up with a "implication." The point being made is anyone who is still acting like the vaccine can get us to herd immunity is foolish. This was part of the stated goals of the vaccine, memory holes aside. The point isn't to claim the vaccine is a bad idea to take, the point is to point out the foolishness of those who continue to think if we could just push it hard and fast enough, we could end the disease. These people still exist, or at least, given the increased authoritarianism, are acting that way. > It essentially boils down to "The vaccine isn't 100% effective, so why bother?" "Essentially boils down to" - more weasel words! The point being made is lots of people claim to be waving the flag of science and objectivity, and can't even do basic risk analysis or keep up with the evolving knowledge we have. You took a very good post and turned it into an army of strawmen to knock down, and also tried to tag the person involved as an anti-vaxxer. Horrible stuff, really.

hagbard_c 5y ago

> [citation needed] as I haven't heard of this. Are [1] you [2] sure [3] you [4] never [5] heard [6] about [7] this [8]? Even [9] CNN [10] published [11] on [12] this [13]... Vaccinating children to the supposed-but-unlikely benefit of adults and the potential detriment of those children is morally wrong, this is an absolute which is not open for debate as far as I'm concerned. We're not talking about vaccines which are known safe like those against Measles or Rubella, this is uncharted territory which would normally have taken years of study before this type of vaccine would even be offered to children, leave alone mandated. Do you have children? I do. They are vaccinated against many things, some of them on my request (e.g. the TB vaccine is not a standard where I live). I will not have them take these vaccines though, both because there is no need as well as for the above stated reason. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-york-state-quietly-deletes-controversial-cuomo-order-that-forced-nursing-homes-to-admit-coronavirus-patients/ar-BB14G9Yr https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-york-state-quietly-... [2] https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-ap-top-news-understanding-the-outbreak-new-york-andrew-cuomo-212ccd87924b6906053703a00514647f https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-ap-top-news-unders... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56091682 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56091682 [4] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/nys-cuomo-criticized-highest-nursing-home-death-toll-70596950 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/nys-cuomo-criticized... [5] https://www.wsj.com/articles/cuomo-advisers-altered-report-on-covid-19-nursing-home-deaths-11614910855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/cuomo-advisers-altered-report-o... [6] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/9000-covid-patients-were-sent-from-ny-hospitals-into-nursing-homes-records-show/2884682/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/9000-covid-patie... [7] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-andrew-cuomo-donald-trump-nursing-homes-a9535691.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronaviru... [8] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/five-governors-besides-cuomo-who-sent-covid-19-positive-patients-into-nursing-homes/ar-BB1e7bB2 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/five-governors-besides-cuo... [9] https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nursing-homes-fact-check/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nur... [10] https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nursing-homes-fact-check/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/andrew-cuomo-nursing... [11] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/nursing-homes-coronavirus.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/nursing-homes-coronavi... [12] https://khn.org/morning-breakout/gov-cuomos-order-to-house-covid-patients-in-nursing-homes-scrutinized/ https://khn.org/morning-breakout/gov-cuomos-order-to-house-c... [13] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-will-no-longer-require-nursing-homes-take-covid-n1204586 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-will-no-longer...